Looking For Thoughts of Good Players

Simba · Enthusiast Joined: 30 Oct 2010 Posts: 84

Hey everyone Smile

. Recently I've been exploring game theory to get a grip of the 'best' heads-up strategy, focusing on pre-flop at the moment, planning to move to post-flop once I have pre-flop cracked.

As part of my research I'm curious as to how close good players play to optimal, so if you consider yourself good, I'd be extremely grateful if you'd fill in some or all of the following:

Questionnaire:

(IN A VACUUM/FIRST HAND)

1) What % of hands do you believe it is optimal to open pre-flop assuming you come in for a 3x raise each time you want to play a hand?

2) Which hands do you believe it is optimal to 3-bet (to 10BBs), assuming the button raises the percentage you gave in Q1.

3) Which hands would you flat the raise with assuming Q1?

4) Which hands do you believe it is optimal to 4-bet (to 25BBs), assuming the big blind 3-bets the percentage you gave in Q2.

5) Which hands would you flat the 3-bet with assuming Q2?

6) Which hands do you believe it is optimal to 5-bet all-in (for 75BBs), assuming the button 4-bets the percentage you gave in Q4.

7) Which hands would you call the 5-bet all-in with after you have 4-bet as in Q4?

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

Thanks a lot to anyone who participates - I'll share some of my findings in exchange as a thank you (and to encourage people to fill that out) Smile

. If you'd rather PM me the information, that's also fine.

Much appreciated!

~~Simba

kolonel

Hope that all makes sense..........

YATHINNK · Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 6:21 pm Post subject:

It seems like you're asking how to play optimally against someone who is playing just as optimally? Unless I'm totally misunderstanding your point.

Simba · Enthusiast Joined: 30 Oct 2010 Posts: 84

Yes, precisely, that's how optimal is defined, though I'm not asking how to play optimally (I've already calculated that from the mathematics I've done over the past few days), I'm just curious how close to optimal good players play by default against an unknown (hence wanting to compare responses in this thread to the optimal ranges I've calculated). I'd really like to hear responses from top players, people playing $30s+. I fully expect that everyone below the $15 level will be playing massively sub-optimally by default, I'm just curious as to how quickly that changes. Are the $30 players playing near optimally by default? The $100 players? That's what I'm curious about.

Kolonel: Thanks a lot for that, that's great Smile

much appreciated.

Brokerstar · Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 10:34 pm Post subject:

I would guess that anyone playing "optimally" will be playing much higher than $30 games.

Most $30 players are fish or players on their way up and just passing through Wink

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Simba · Enthusiast Joined: 30 Oct 2010 Posts: 84

Thanks Broker Smile

I appreciate your reply. Part of what's motivating me to do all this mathematics is your view on reads/tells and such - I want to see how far it's possible to get using pure mathematics alone, the flip side of the coin if you will. Finally something my maths degree is useful for!

Some of the results and ranges I've calculated are very surprising - I think I'm beginning to see why I'm not doing so well myself in games (as mine look nothing at all like they do)...

I've finished calculating the optimal pre-flop strategy now for 3x open-raises pre. Next task is to do the same for minraises and for open-limping, then to experiment a bit with varying stack sizes. Then I'll move onto analysis of optimal play post-flop. I'm aiming to have 'solved' no-limit hold'em heads up in a sense by the end of October. Then there's going to be a lot of memorisation (yay for having a good memory), and then to the tables to put it all to the ultimate test Smile

. I've run simulations of quadrillions of hands on the calculations I've done so far, and all looks correct up to now! My inner maths geek and poker geek are both very excited. Razz

aggsyb · Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 3:06 am Post subject:

StasKo · Grinder Joined: 10 Jul 2011 Posts: 126 Location: Israel

"I want to see how far it's possible to get using pure mathematics alone"
IMO, no further than your opponents tendencies!
if your opponent changes one of his tendencies even by a small fraction it will change the math exponentially.

its far more "optimal" to focus on playing the opponent rather than to solve the game mathematically.

ive been there myself, trying to figure out how much math involves in becoming a winning player and its always the same answer:
the math (most of it) is dependant on opponent's psychology and not the other way around. so "playing optimally" is solving your opponent rather than solving the math behind the game

sandman369 · Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 4:44 am Post subject:

NLHU is not the game you want to play with pure math. Turn your focus to limit cash games (not HU) to utilize optimal math wizardry.

two2go · Baller Joined: 03 Nov 2010 Posts: 419

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