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BetMagicMoney
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 Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2011 11:10 am Post subject: |
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| Borg7 wrote: | Math is EVERYTHING in poker.
Defining opponent's ranges and adjusting yours accordingly is pure math. We don't have to do concious calculations for it to be math.
When we adjust our own ranges on the basis of what we believe our opponents ranges to be, we subconciously (mathematically) evaluate a wide variety of possibilities.
There is no such thing as playing "feel-based". It's only a sub-category of playing math-based. |
This
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BetMagicMoney
Forum Moderator & Spam Police
Joined: 22 Mar 2010
Posts: 3594
Skype: samuel.woodhams
Location: This Place Is My First Home
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| Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2011 11:10 am Post subject: |
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| Borg7 wrote: | Math is EVERYTHING in poker.
Defining opponent's ranges and adjusting yours accordingly is pure math. We don't have to do concious calculations for it to be math.
When we adjust our own ranges on the basis of what we believe our opponents ranges to be, we subconciously (mathematically) evaluate a wide variety of possibilities.
There is no such thing as playing "feel-based". It's only a sub-category of playing math-based. |
This
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"When everything seems to be going against you, remember that the airplane takes off against the wind, not with it."
Borg7
"Lol he'll get there tho. He is a smart guy"
_red_dog
follow me on twitter @BetMagicMoney |
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Brokerstar
This Place Is My Second Home
Joined: 12 Aug 2009
Posts: 2965
Location: England
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| Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2011 12:18 pm Post subject: |
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Ok, ok to say there is NO math in my game when I play is obviously untrue but there is not as much math in my play as there is logical observations on actions vs joe average fish.
I think in terms of learning to beat these games from the ground up you need a foundation to build off of.
Step one of the foundation is to learn the rules of poker (ok we likely have that down)
Step Two: Learn to be able to define your opponent. Is he tight, is he loose, is he passive, is he aggressive? So, so, so, so many people seem to really struggle to do this and always say things like I'm struggling to define my opponents well and feel lost when I play. So it is an important habit to get into.
Step 2.5: Is 2.5 as it kind of goes hand in hand with step two, we need to look for patterns in play as at the lower stakes people just have blatantly obvious routines that = strong or weak (Just being simplistic here as a foundation).
Step 3: Learn about your opponents ranges and the best way to play against them which will vary according to player types (example a calling station may call down three streets with bottom pair, a tight passive player generally will not so value betting mid pair too thin would be a mistake in the latter example).
| Quote: |
Math is EVERYTHING in poker.
Defining opponent's ranges and adjusting yours accordingly is pure math. We don't have to do concious calculations for it to be math.
When we adjust our own ranges on the basis of what we believe our opponents ranges to be, we subconciously (mathematically) evaluate a wide variety of possibilities.
There is no such thing as playing "feel-based". It's only a sub-category of playing math-based. |
Not that I ever go out of my way to disagree with you but I don't agree that everything is math. For example when you have a timing tell that a snap action is weak and you have observed evidence in game that he then folds to a bet in that situation you are not playing math, you are playing the player and his tendencies.
My point that I was making is that I don't think knowing or trying to learn insane equations is anywhere near as important as a first step to learning as the OP originally asked "what should I focus on first".
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Borg7
Reader of Souls
Joined: 20 Nov 2009
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Location: Germoney
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| Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2011 1:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Brokerstar wrote: |
Not that I ever go out of my way to disagree with you but I don't agree that everything is math. For example when you have a timing tell that a snap action is weak and you have observed evidence in game that he then folds to a bet in that situation you are not playing math, you are playing the player and his tendencies.
My point that I was making is that I don't think knowing or trying to learn insane equations is anywhere near as important as a first step to learning as the OP originally asked "what should I focus on first". |
A timing tell is only a factor that plays a role in defining villain's ranges.
When you evaluate and adjust your own ranges according to that, you're subconciously solving a math problem.
All in all, you're still playing math based even when you base your play mostly on a timing tell.
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Dominic Heydon |
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Brokerstar
This Place Is My Second Home
Joined: 12 Aug 2009
Posts: 2965
Location: England
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| Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2011 2:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Borg7 wrote: | | Brokerstar wrote: |
Not that I ever go out of my way to disagree with you but I don't agree that everything is math. For example when you have a timing tell that a snap action is weak and you have observed evidence in game that he then folds to a bet in that situation you are not playing math, you are playing the player and his tendencies.
My point that I was making is that I don't think knowing or trying to learn insane equations is anywhere near as important as a first step to learning as the OP originally asked "what should I focus on first". |
A timing tell is only a factor that plays a role in defining villain's ranges.
When you evaluate and adjust your own ranges according to that, you're subconciously solving a math problem.
All in all, you're still playing math based even when you base your play mostly on a timing tell. |
I watched an episode of numbers once and you're right, everything is maths ha ha.
OP My advice is to not stress yourself to learn everything all at once but instead tackle one obstacle at a time. Math situations will come up on your journey of learning for example understanding how your hand is doing against an entire range as well as many other spots but before you get to that a good place to START is understanding who you're actually up against as you asked what should you focus on first.
And Borg you're on my sh!t list, why were you not at my party last night???
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Borg7
Reader of Souls
Joined: 20 Nov 2009
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Location: Germoney
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| Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2011 3:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Brokerstar wrote: |
I watched an episode of numbers once and you're right, everything is maths ha ha.
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Haha, epic show!
| Brokerstar wrote: |
And Borg you're on my sh!t list, why were you not at my party last night??? |
I was there...took a piss in your swimming pool, rode your electric bull and then left. 
The most fulfilling experience of my life thus far.
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wowbobwow
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Joined: 07 Aug 2011
Posts: 24
Skype: joojimoofoo
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| Posted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 10:22 am Post subject: |
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I will take bites out of everything that I'm being fed here and see what works best for me. Working on hand ranges now. For the record I went crazy the other week and memorized hand odds for both the turn and the river for up to fifteen outs when I could have just pasted one on the wall. I'll just be realistic this time...
Kudos!!!  |
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chesslw
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Joined: 17 Jan 2011
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| Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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It really depends what one means by "maths" (sorry I won't spell it math).
Tbh I would consider logical thinking maths. And when you are playing intuitively, basically you are adjusting to your perception of your opponent, and playing to maximize your expectation- i.e. solving a maths problem (one of optimization).
It's not exactly "maximize x^3-5x+7 (corresponding to maximizing your EV) given some conditions (corresponding to reads), but it is really the same thing.
Our brains are very good at pattern recognition- which is basically what maths (or poker, or any other strategy game) is fundamentally. And this is the skill you are using. Although you can just play intuitively with good results if you are a good logical thinker, and have plenty of experience- imo it is much better if you can understand the maths behind why certain decisions are correct.
Tbh I just find that this way I can learn much faster, and improve faster as well, since it becomes easier to generalise spots/decisions.
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wowbobwow
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Joined: 07 Aug 2011
Posts: 24
Skype: joojimoofoo
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| Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 7:07 am Post subject: |
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| chesslw wrote: | It really depends what one means by "maths" (sorry I won't spell it math).
Tbh I would consider logical thinking maths. And when you are playing intuitively, basically you are adjusting to your perception of your opponent, and playing to maximize your expectation- i.e. solving a maths problem (one of optimization).
It's not exactly "maximize x^3-5x+7 (corresponding to maximizing your EV) given some conditions (corresponding to reads), but it is really the same thing.
Our brains are very good at pattern recognition- which is basically what maths (or poker, or any other strategy game) is fundamentally. And this is the skill you are using. Although you can just play intuitively with good results if you are a good logical thinker, and have plenty of experience- imo it is much better if you can understand the maths behind why certain decisions are correct.
Tbh I just find that this way I can learn much faster, and improve faster as well, since it becomes easier to generalise spots/decisions. |
Thanks I will keep that in mind..  |
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