| Archive for Tagpoker Forum A friendly place for winning poker players to share their strategy to making money playing poker. |
| Kim Cardassian |
Weak 2 pair vs tightish opponentsI have a bit of a "no clue" moment on some of these hands.Example: Full Tilt Poker $10 + $0.50 Heads Up No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t15/t30 Blinds - 2 players DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter BB: t1630 54.33 BBs Hero (BTN/SB): t1370 45.67 BBs Pre Flop: (t45) Hero is BTN/SB with 7  6
Hero raises to t60, BB calls t30 Flop: (t120) 7  K 6 (2 players)
BB bets t90, Hero raises to t270, BB calls t180 Turn: (t660) 4  (2 players)
BB bets t150, Hero raises to t1040 all in, BB folds Worse hands Villain is calling with: K5/6d4d/8d9d/Ad5d Better hands: 66/K7/K6/K4/85 Equity = 28% He donked alot of boards but was usually betting smaller, throwing in hands such as 64s and 89s helps my equity but I really doubt if theyre in his range (he did donk strong made hands such as top pair rather small, so its not unthinkable he could donk draws big). But it's not to be specific vs this guy, I think that this is a general range on this board and usually no better then 30% equity. I usually shove these hands on the turn, but I think vs tight opponents it's really overplaying my hand as I'm rarely called by worse and even then they have a ton of equity. The reason I shove is really because I don't want to make a sick river decision. Not because I think he's calling with worse. So what do I do in this instance? I think a raise is committing way too many chips anyway plus giving him an easy call if he does have a draw plus giving him the opportunity to suck out with a pair. I'm just sort of stuck, I feel like that no matter what I do it's a mistake in this situation. |
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| reemus1 |
I like the flop raise but the size is a litte bit to big raise smaller on flop. with the size of his donk we can assume/hope he has a piece of this board so as played i would raise the turn to 500-600 anything between is fine IMO. So he can jam or call.
Donks on 2 streets are often marginal hits or bluffs. |
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| U Cook Socks |
I think you need to re think the range you have given for worse hands that will call a raise. (they may not call a shove)
I also think that you need to have a think about a couple of statements you made in that post. "The reason I shove is really because I don't want to make a sick river decision" Although it is good to keep Poker as simple as possible, it is rarely going to be correct to shove, so that you avoid tough decisions on later streets. The better you get at those tough decisions, the better player you will become. "I think a raise is committing way too many chips anyway plus giving him an easy call if he does have a draw plus giving him the opportunity to suck out with a pair. " I'm pretty sure this is flawed. You want him to call with his draws, and his one pair hands. Of course he is going to get there sometimes, his odds of doing so are greatly reduced on the turn though, with only one card to come. Anyway, don't think I am knocking you, just a few thoughts for you to go away and think about, maybe you can come up with a better conclusion yourself this way, which will help you more than me or anyone else telling you a specific action. |
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| _red_dog |
Perfect response from blazing.
/thread |
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| Brokerstar |
Agreed with Red Blazing covered that perfectly.
There is never a case for 'trying to get draws to fold' your mind set should be charging draws and giving them incorrect odds to call but make no mistake, we want them to call so we can get their chips!!! 
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| Kim Cardassian |
So what am I going to do if he pots the river OOP after I got 400 behind. Fold? | ||||||
| U Cook Socks |
I'm not trying to be funny with you, so please don't think that, but I mean I made a post in the hope it may help you think about things, and you come back with a one line question, that even if I told you the answer (or what I think the answer is) it wont really benefit you at all. Personally I think your flop raise is to big, 210 would be around my sizing, although my bet sizings are something I am still working hard on. This may seem not much difference at first glance, 210, 270, whatever right ? But it makes a big difference to the pot size. It does the same job, it still allows him to do something crazy like shove over the top, with his top pair hand, or a draw. It allows him to call with weaker hands, and it leaves some room to manouvre on later streets. It seems as though you are scared of him calling, but you shouldn't be. You are just assuming he will pot the river anyway. His line looks super weak. I would be happy to call it off on a lot of rivers. |
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| Kim Cardassian |
Of course I am scared of him calling. They always get there.
I also raise bigger on the flop as purely villain dependant here as he was too scared of being bluffed and tended to call when I raised his donks. I figured maybe he'll call a bigger raise aswell and I pretty much got a very vulnerable hand anyway so if he folds it's not that bad. Suppose I raise to 210. Pot on turn is 540 and he bets 150. Now I have 1100 behind, if I raise to 450 he needs 300 to call for a 1140 pot. 4 8's, 4 5's, 4 3's, 3 K's, 5 diamonds (6 of diamonds gives me a FH) are all scare cards for me. So 20 cards are possible for him to shove on the river which leaves a decision (and I'm likely to make the wrong decision) or I have to check behind on the river as nothing worse is calling. If I raise less he might even get direct odds for his draw, if I raise more I got like a puny stack behind with something like 400, 300 and a pot over 1300. I don't see that much extra room for playing. It's still the same awkward stack size. |
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| U Cook Socks |
They don't always get there, you just remember the times they get there.
It comes back to the same thing again, you are scared of making a poor river decision. You are also assuming he is shoving the river on anyone of the 20 cards you mention, and in all honesty, he probably isn't. |
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| _red_dog |
This first sentence says a hell of a lot about your general mind set. It's laughable to say the least. Its like Dom said, you don't just want to blow them off of hands because you are scared (lol?), you want them to have incorrect odds but you want them to call. You win money by your opponents making mistakes. How do your opponents make a mistake if you bet so much that they make a correct fold? Even if they get there and you lose, you have still won money by making them make a -EV call. This is where your EV is going to come from. Every winning players knows this, and yet here you are disputing it. |
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| Kim Cardassian |
What else am I supposed to think? "They only hit 18% of the time"? Because my -$500 EV says otherwise. |
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| _red_dog |
god! Yes that is what you are supposed to think, because that is the case. Lol $500 below EV? That's nothing. Stop seeing monsters under the damn bed. Other wise you will just continue to breakeven/lose. | ||||||
| U Cook Socks |
I'm not sure what you want to be honest.
You post a hand, presumably because you would like some advice on it. On this thread you have had advice from Red_Dog and BrokerStar, both of whom are sick good players. Yet you choose to argue with them, rather than take in the advice, and ask any further questions you may have. I know which way I think will improve you as a player. |
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| _red_dog |
cardassian must be 14 or something, I remember when I was 14 I thought I knew everything aswell..... Now I just know that I know everything 
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| U Cook Socks |
If only you had more confidence in your own ability, just think how good you could be 
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| _red_dog |
hehehehe | ||||||
| Kim Cardassian |
I take more of an "active" stance on learning. Yea I will bullshit around because I don't quite understand the logic behind it. I know shoving that crap isn't quite the best play. But I have clearly explained what I think is wrong with a small raise with these stack sizes and I haven't seen quite a satisfactory answer to the question: There's 20 scare cards (actually some of them make my hand completely worthless aswell). I have no valuebet on the river when one of those hits. He can shove any 1 of them and put me to a difficult decision since I'm getting insane pot odds because of the silly stack sizes. How do you solve that? And I do not think I know everything. I know I think I know everything. And by the way, I just happen to have a $8,50 profit on $10 HU SNGs as of today. So I think I know a thing or 2 about HU SNGs. |
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| U Cook Socks |
I'm not in it to flame you, far from it. I mean it makes little difference to me if you are good , bad or indifferent. I try and give an honest opinion on hands on here, I'm not always right, if I was , I wouldn't still be playing $30 games myself. I have give you answers, you just chose to ignore them. You have said it in all of your posts, you don't want to make a difficult river decision. If you can't make difficult decisions, then I would suggest that poker isn't for you. I personally don't think there are 20 scare cards for the river, but even if there are, that means there are more good cards than bad cards right ? Also not all of those cards that scare you are going to hit his hand. You are a huge favourite against a draw, or a one pair hand on the turn. The fact he folded tells me he wasn't all that strong at all, and you could have got more chips out of him with a more sensible raise. Something to bear in mind. You aren't going to win every game, you aren't going to get the chips in good every game, and you aren't going to make perfect decisions every game. Just have to make less mistakes than your oppponents to win moneys. I wish you well. |
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| The Little Fish |
Well said. |
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| kierkegaard1 |
I'd consider quitting | ||||||
| _red_dog |
Is this $850? If so then lol@chu. I know ppl who are retarded and know nothing about poker who have made $850 playing HUSNG's simply riding a heater. It doesn't say a fucking thing about what you know, or what you think you know, about HUSNG's. From what I am reading, you know very little. You want a solid reason as to why you shouldnt do just jam? Because it folds out so much of his range. This is a spot where keeping his value range wide is correct. TBH, he probably isn't going to fold a big draw to your jam anyways, but may fold weaker hands that call smaller raises. Your goal should be to maximise profit, not minimise losses. You sound like a total beginner when you talk about HUSNG strat. Might be a good idea to move down a bit before variance catches up with you. Also, what kierk said is probably correct. |
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| chesslw |
Cardassian- is the problem that you feel you commit too much anyway so might as well shove?
If he the type to call with worse then shove is ok. But put yourself in his shoes. If you're is sitting there with 5c4c what would you do if you get raised on the turn like that (rather than facing a shove)? Most of these fishy players would have some chance of spaz jamming (rarely do they call just to miss and fold river)- and when you shove you are forcing him into the right decision of folding. Also a scare card on the river is a scare card for him as well (except when he hits a non-flush straight or the flush). If he is the spazzy type to bet on any type of scarecard then I would guess he is very easily exploitable anyway- and the decision is easy for you (call). |
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| golden |
I LOVE LAMP | ||||||
| Kim Cardassian |
No. $8,50. But grinded a ton of matches and got coolered alot yesterday so I lost due to rake. Right now I have made... 'bout tree-fiddy. I don't know what limits those retarded guys play, but if you play $10s and make $850 I'd say that's pretty good statistical evidence that your a winner. Not that I would be capable of such a thing.
The problem is the odds I get on the river should he shove and the fact that I'm around 500 chips then plus theres a ton of cards that devalue my hand and pretty much half the deck is a scare card where I can't even bet the river because the tight guy would most likely fold everything worse. The playertypes I mean are not the type to spazz or shove worse here. The point at which I usually get into trouble with this type of hand is when I'm pretty convinced they're tightish and not spewy, but not when I have definitive reads on how they play certain hands. I have no idea wheter potting the river is a bluff or value (And I don't even know what kind of value or how easily they're scared by a bad board). I mean I know they fold alot to bets and raises, but I don't quite know what their own bets mean. |
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| chesslw |
The fundamental problem is when you shove you are basically forcing them to not make mistakes (unless they are that bad to call with a naked 8 outer straightdraw like on facebook poker), and if they play perfectly against you, you are not making money! Think about this (vastly simplified) analogy- you shove a range of hands preflop and fold the rest, since you "get into tricky spots postflop" and don't know what to do. Would you rather get into the so called tricky spots, or would you rather make it easy for your opponent to play perfectly against you? No one says that poker is easy- and for me at least, there are tons of spots where I'm not sure on the river (or the turn, flop and preflop for that matter). The decision of what to do if river is a horrible card only comes with experience and knowledge that comes with being a good poker player (don't get me wrong- I'm not). Not only is trying to avoid tricky spots with no valid reason -EV, it also doesn't help you improve your game. I'm sure that after playing over 500 hands in a similar spot on the river, your reading and decision making abilities would be a lot better, and whatever the best option is on the river, it is strictly superior to shoving the turn. |
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| U Cook Socks |
I like the above post alot. It is actually what I was trying to say, but you did a better job of it. Nh Sir. |