| Archive for Tagpoker Forum A friendly place for winning poker players to share their strategy to making money playing poker. |
| blsmur |
hey red dog you dont reply to my skype
now I have been shoving my Ax s and have been told I am doing the wrong thing how am i supposed to get this str8 even Broker says shove Ax is profitable now it seems it is not profitable but you say it is profitable and prove it with maths how can anyone learn with all this contradiction oh and I am sure some of you will be pissed at me well i realy dont care suk it up princess |
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| kolonel |
What range of hands did you put villain on ? | ||||||
| aggsyb |
i love this guy lol |
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| _red_dog |
ok, despite the confrontational tone that you used in your post I will attempt to reply to what is a very vague, ill thought out question.
How many big blinds are you shoving? Are you open jamming or 3bet shoving? Who is telling you that you are doing the wrong thing? If the maths says it's profitable - then it is profitable, there is just no two ways about it. There is of course a difference between "max EV" and "plus EV". Just because something is +EV doesn't mean it is the optimal decision. But it is not a mistake (usually). |
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| kierkegaard1 |
the hand in question was somewhere between 60-75bb deep, blsmur raised, villain min3bet, and blsmur overbet shoved w/A8 |
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| _red_dog |
Blsmur, time to take up a new hobby mate. Poker just isn't for you. | ||||||
| blsmur |
now whos being an Arsewipe and a fellow aussie too sad you make out you here to help you advertise for students to coach and you dont answer skype after advertinsing that you will so really disappointed with this site overall it sux all i ever seem to get is abuse the help i have received has been minimal one of my biggest problems since doing Brokers Course was I misunderstood something he said while doing the course one of which was in relation to AA and playing it the other i also misunderstood was that A2 is profitable shove pre so these 2 misunderstandings have hindered my game play and when i ask him for more coaching because i knew i was not achieving the result i should i was refused and then i ask every person on this site for coaching and i am refused and abused so i think this might be my last post surely i can find a better place to be thanks to those of you that have tried help I get more upset reading the posts you guys make about me than losing the game this is wrong Ron Kirby |
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| kolonel |
Is this a level ?!?
I dont think your problems stem from not understanding how to play AA and A2, but you need to realise that to become better at HUSNG is the ability to define your opponent which you clearly struggle to do based on your last couple videos. Playing this game, and being profitable is not about how you play certain hands. Its how you play certain ranges of hands versus different villains, which is where you seem to be struggling overall. The game changes and evolves, so perhaps when your "style" worked in the past, others have continued to improve and better their game. I am not sure coaching is really the answer, as so many people are working through their game with just the information/videos found on this site. Getting coaching on how to play AA or making A2 profitable is a long way from you being able to beat these games. In regards to the coaching you continue to bemoan about, i think they have been fairly transparent in what they are offering at any point in time. I think red_dog was fairly blunt, and probably could have been a bit more tactful, but i feel some of your responses may warrant this from time to time. You seem very argumentative, without being constructive. If this is indeed one of your last posts, good luck with whatever you do. |
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| _red_dog |
jog on son. See you round. | ||||||
| Brokerstar |
When have I ever refused to help you? I said several times that I'll try and help you with a review and you haven't taken me up on it. I've tried to get you to think about hands by talking you through thought provoking ways to think about situations, all free of charge as I love to help if I can. I'm also not sure what confusion you're talking about with AA other than perhaps the hand you talked me through briefly earlier where you said a TAG player bet into you on a TT7 flop and you raised all in. I simply asked why you raised and what you thought your opponent had? I then went on to explain that if you thought he was bluffing that flat calling would of been a better option to allow him to continue to bluff and tried to get you to think more about WHY you make the plays you do and tried to examine your reasons why. So many top players have really tried to help you, myself included. People have taken time out of their day to give detailed replies to your questions and the truth is that you just haven't understood what anyone (not just me) has tried to explain to you. With regards to if you should or shouldn't shove an ace x hand, it depends on stack sizes and your opponents aggression levels. A simplistic example is 10 blinds deep A2 is easy to get in pre flop. 100 blinds deep it's not. It's not the hand, it's the hand in relation to the blinds. |
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| blsmur |
i been wanting this review this week yes i understand the relation ship of blinds and stack now but i took you at your word 7 months ago and i have been trying to play this way obvioulsy wrong but I thought i was doing what you said was profitable whe i aasked you for extra coaching you stated you were not coaching any more that you had moved on to cassh game s when i tried to get coaching from your advertisers i got ignored or refused this is not the way to run a business i am very dissattisfied with my treatment I paid $200 for a course that didnt help me you lost you internet half way through it it must be clear to you after 7 months that there is a need to for extra tuition for me which i was happy to pay for no one wants my money the best help i have had was on skype these last few days i have fixed this stupid way of playing AA KK QQ thank God I thought i was wrong by not going to river based on what you said even though i misunderstood your meaning why dont you offer a backup coaching for idiot like me that need this little bit extra I am sure we would have sorted out my wrong play a lot earlier but more than anything why am i being insulted time a time again where is the service my customers no matter how dumb they may appear to me get 100% of my attention when they not getting results ie they place the head uniit on horse upside down i will take half an hour to explain how to make it go , they will argue and then they look and sure enough i am right I dont abuse them for being wrong ,i help them get it right we even had a customer that forgot to put the battery in the head unit people do stuff wrong , and misunderstand instructions no matter how plainly written every unit has a full A4 sheet with "WARNING " read this first some dont but if you buy from foalguard .com you will get 100% service even late at night when really would rather not this site and you Broker do not offer this to me or have not yet |
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| _red_dog |
jesus fcking christ. Why are you trying to plug ur business lol.
Like i said; jog on. You fail to take on information provided to you. This site has offered you as much help as possible. The coaches on this site have nothing to do with the site as a whole. If you have a problem with how broker has coached (or not coached) you then take it up with him privately. Stop bitching for god sake. Act you age not you shoe size. |
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| U Cook Socks |
I have never read such nonsense in all of my life.
You seem to want someone to wave a magic wand, and boom, you are a good poker player. Sorry but it doesn't work like that. Takes hours of studying, trying to grasp concepts, of why you are doing things, in certain situations. You seem to think every situation is the same, but it isn't. You say things that confirm this all of the time, like "I'm not shoving A4 anymore" or like in the last post, you are now saying you play AA KK differently, every situation has the most + EV way of playing it, or actually sometimes all options might be -EV so you choose the option that will lose you the least chips in the long run. I have spent countless hours studying, going through games, looking for mistakes, posting hands, asking people questions, having coaching, watching videos, going through some more games, and doing it over and over again, and I'm still really not all that good, it's not easy at all. I am lucky enough all my hard work allows me to beat the low stakes, so I make a few $ out of something I enjoy. To take it a step further, I need to put in all of those hours studying again. The way I see it, you have put no effort in to learning whatsoever. People have helped you on here, real good players giving you solid advice, but instead of utilising it, you would rather argue the toss with everyone. I have also spent countless hours on here, trying to help new players, for no $ gain, just because I like to help people. I'd have done the same for you too, but to be honest, the tone of your posts, and the fact you don't listen to a word anyone says, just makes me not want to bother. To come on here and start slandering Broker is just plain wrong, you paid for the course, and you got the course right ? I presume you have the videos to it ? I have no doubt you have watched them, but you don't understand them, that is clear from the games you have posted on here, and the comments you make. Instead of having a dig at Broker, why don't you go back and watch them again, and again, until you get them, if you don't get anything I am sure Broker will answer your questions, as he has every time you have posted on the forum. I know Dom quite well (not in person) but I have done a fair bit of work with him through the Top Team, and he has always been fair with me. I also know he will be quite hurt by your comments, as he has spent a lot of time building a good reputation up, built on the work he has done, and the way he has treated people. Try and remember he is a busy man, he doesn't just have you to coach. $200 doesn't buy you jack sh!t in the way of poker coaching, the course is solid value for money. Anyway, this is another great thread ruined, if you want to get better at poker, I reccomend reading the start of this thread, if you do, and fully understand it, you wont need to ask half the questions you have asked, and you will be a much better player for it. |
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| blsmur |
well Blazing my man
i have been playing some hands the wrong way for 7 months because of a misunderstanding of what broker said to me that really sux it must be obvious from my posts i here i had it wrong but no one picked up on it just told me to re view the course vids the only reason it came to my notice I was telling broker about a hand on skype and now i know but 7 months of doing wrong as for anything else well who knows what else i might have misunderstood all i ever wanted was some help for which i was willing to pay as for wrecking a thread sorry was not me who started this this morning i am sorry i ever came to this site it caused me so much grief i have stewed on this all day this is no way to run a business |
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| U Cook Socks |
Kind of contradicts what you are saying. "You have had no help" Yet Broker took the time out of his busy day, to answer your questions on skype. Why is it causing you greif, it's as easy to leave as it was to come in, if it's really causiing you that much stress in life. I don't see why it should, they are just words written on an internet forum at the end of the day. The course is designed especially for players like you to start from the very beggining, it makes no assumptions, other than you know the very basics of HUSNG, like the rules. It couldn't be put in simpler terms imo. If no one pointed out your mistakes, it was probably because it's easier to point out what's right with your game, but you don't want to hear that, and have another hissy fit every time someone says something you don't like. The business seemed to be doing just fine, with glowing reviews from many students, before you, I don't ever remember anyone else complaining, so maybe that tells you something. |
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| blsmur |
well i am disapointed
sorry but i am |
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| Brokerstar |
I'm actually just angry now.
Firstly I have helped you more than most people. You said you wanted help with your game this week of which I was happy to do but you never said a day you were free? I've never been abusive, ever. It's just not my style. At times I'm firm with people when I think they just need to be told straight when something is wrong. You also keep going on about AA,KK,QQ hands and that I confused you with how I told you to play them. You keep suggesting that there was one set way that I said to play them when as I keep saying, it should change based on opponent type and board texture considerations. It really is all in the videos. With regards to the other coaches that are in this forum, they are just here, mostly contributing for the sake of giving back. You have had a couple of coaches that could fairly charge $150/ hour, take about that time to try and help with some of the situations that you have posted over the weeks. They are not on any kind of pay roll, it's an open forum for people that study the game. To be fair, all of your posts over the weeks have insinuated that my course some how made you a losing player. Frankly I'm insulted by that. The sheer fact that you haven't even memorized the study material means that it's not my course at all that's causing you to lose, it's that fact that you're simply not studying the material. Whenever you have asked questions on Skype, (if I have been on at the same time) I have always responded instantly and done my best to get you to think in the correct way about any situation that you presented me with. So the fact that you say I refuse to help you is even more infuriating. If you can not see why you are alienating people and starting to get negative responses then I don't know what to say really. If I was you I would try posting the kind of questions that you have about your game on http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/ and see if they can help. I'm 100% unsure what I can do to help now or even if I want to anymore. I've never been so insulted or lied about in my life. Best of luck with your game and try actually learning what's in the videos. Regards Broker |
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| Jakester1288 |
Don't worry about it Broker. Ron is simply too stubborn, he's not putting in the work.
Ron, if you honestly are putting in the work, either go back to 9 man SNG's, and rule the world with your 24% ROI (and just shove Nash in heads up play, that should be all you need), or quit the game. As they say, you can't teach an old dog new tricks. Cut your losses and keep working on other projects around the house (eg the horse float), stocks trading, your wife's business, etc. |
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| kolonel |
Pardon my stupidity, but can you repost the links to the HH you posted in the forums for some of these hands. I am sorry i missed them over the course of time, and didnt add any input to them whatsoever. I can see why you are a little disgruntled when you received no responses to all the HH you posted here on Tagpoker. |
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| doodiewiz |
Blsmur you played really bad in those videos you posted imo, but also did some good stuff. You can't have learnt brokers style very well at all because even to my fishy eye I can see you have a lot to learn. If I was you I'd take nothing for certain at this point and just study study study if you want to get better. Mate I'd watch a few leakfinders if I can't get coaching which you've obviously been offered anyway. Bad form to blame the course mate:/ Basically were really lucky to have some decent players on this site. You admitted yourself you had trouble picking stuff up and it can be frustrating but I wouldn't blame others. Look at your own mistakes first dude! | ||||||
| blsmur |
what you have failed to understand I believed you i didnt question what you said and i have been playing wrongly for 7 months as a result how can I question you with t e result you get playing poker my biggest mistake was believing you and my second biggest was not understanding what you meant i cant hold you responsible for the way some people treat me on here or what they say but you made the offer to teach you should make sure that everyone understands if i understood how could i go for 7 months without improving think about it I am not an idiot i can design and build electronics I can completely rebuild car engines so i can learn to play at least a b grade of poker i have been upset and angry too and what is worse now I am even more angry because i have wasted 7 mths with the wrong info you have no idea how angry I am delete these posts now as I dont want to ruin your business but in future make sure your students understand everything |
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| kolonel |
Words fail me....... |
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| DN70 |
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| U Cook Socks |
What is this information, that has made you such a bad player over the last 7 months ? Im intrigued to know. | ||||||
| Brokerstar |
How have you wasted 7 months with the wrong information???
You have all of the study material in the videos. YOU just haven't taken the time to learn it. (memorize it like we talked about already) I told you exactly what you needed to do, gave you a step by step plan, you even thanked me for the advice yesterday and what have you done about it? Nothing. I asked you if you memorized the first three videos and the content in it. You said yes I think I've got that. I didn't believe that you had revised it so I started asking you questions on situations that were crystal clear in the videos. You remember me asking you about the bet size vs a really agro player in the situation we talked about and you said "I bet half pot" When I asked you why you chose that bet you simply replied "I don't know, that's just what I do". I then went on to explain a better plan, made sure you understood it, you said you understood what I was saying and that exact plan for the hand was in the third video of the course under 'spazz inducing bet'. So your half pot bet was wrong. You say you've been studying the material for 7 months but you didn't even remember one of the most basic betting strategies in the course. Also what do you mean it was a mistake to believe what I say? What does that even mean? The fact is you didn't believe what I said because you never, EVER even attempted to play the style that I so clearly laid out for beginners. You are hyper aggressive (I never taught you that) you are crazy bluffy (I never taught you that), you never fold strong pairs, ever (just watch the second video for examples where I talk about EASY folds with that kind of strength hand), you make bets for no reason other than "that's what I do" (again I lay out all of the specific reasons for each player in each situation). I have prided myself on making my content (which is beginners content for the most part) as simple as it can possibly be. This is the fact, you have not studied the material (watching it and not paying attention does not count as study), you show no intension of ever studying it or implementing it. Don't come in here and blame me for the fact that you haven't even tried to memorize the strategy videos. Just the first three even. I tried to go out of my way so many times to help you above and beyond anyone else that has ever done the course but all you've done is annoy me by coming in here on an almost daily basis, slandering my material and looking to point blame at others to make yourself feel better about the fact that poker is either A) too complicated for you to understand or B) the fact that you simply want a magic pill to become a winner over night. I've never been this angry before with any of my students or anyone on this forum, ever. I'm so cross that there is this much negativity in here and even more pissed that what was a great sticky thread, made by a player trying to help, for free has turned into your personal rant thread. If you spent half as much time memorizing the player type videos as you do blaming others for your lack of effort, you'd be a millionaire. I'm not going to be doing anymore sessions with you now. I hope you find what your looking for in the poker world, although I fear even if you do, you won't bother to learn it. For the record I am happy to leave these posts up because I firmly stand by the simplicity of my training material. It's not the lack of understanding, it's a lack of MEMORIZING on your part. You haven't revised. Every time I explained something on Skype you and asked you if your understood you said yes, I triple checked and you THANKED me for taking the time to clear things up then I come in here and see more of these rants about being given the 'wrong information'. Just do yourself a favor and make some effort to memorize the course, without doing that, nothing and no one can help you. This isn't an issue of understanding! It's an issue regarding lack of effort. Broker |
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| kolonel |
Must.....not....let....this....get.....to.....me.....
too late 
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| StasKo |
blsmur,
if you ask "is it profitable to shove Ax" and than wait for a definitive answer than maybe poker, like red dog said, is really not for you. poker is not a mathematical equation - just put in the numbers and voila! its a thinking man's (and women's) game so act accordingly. results cant lie and there are so many of broker's students who succeeded in realizing huge profits. broker's help boosted my ROI by 5%-6% even without taking the course! just watching vids and implemeting broker's way of thinking and approaching the game! every business has resentful customers - it doesnt mean that the business is bad. be a man and take responsibilty for your actions and their results. dont be pus*y and blame others for your lack of success. |
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| forced |
me too. |
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| sausage |
I would like to withdraw my offer of coaching at $150/hour. I think a fairer price would be a multiple of that figure. | ||||||
| sausage |
Libel, surely? |
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| Jakester1288 |
It kinda is. |
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| blsmur |
look just 2 things i was shoving Ax anytime because you say it plus EV i have lost with it plenty I thought it was plus ev anytime clearly wrong 2 when you said AA has to lose some of the time I took that as meaning if I got AA in a hu game I just in to the river becuse it supposed to lose some of the time , i thought it would balance out over time so when we were discussing that hand and you asked me why I called on the river when it was painfully obvious this guy could easily have a str8 I siad because that is wht you said to do my mistake so for the last 7 months i have been making this dumb mistakes it wasnt untill kierke pointed out my mistake after wathing my video that i realised this mistake that is why I was angry the fact that i was unable to get any coaching for whatever reason didnt allow me to fix those problems sooner I learn better with conversation I know i could of gone elsewhere to get coaching but they dont teach what you teach that is why I wanted to get a coach from here so now I am just lost as what to do i have filed 3 spiral notebooks plus the one when i first signed up I have obviously alienated everyone on this site so I dont know what to do now my wife has seen me upset from posts on this site and she say i should just leave so i will just not post anything from now on but i wont leave just yet regards to all Ron Kirby I think i qualify as your worst student ever so enjoy |
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| StasKo |
yeah but in that equation 2+2 doesnt necessarily equals 4. what i mean is that you cant base your decision primarily on equations. with each opponent the numbers you put in will change so that means that reading your opponent comes before puting numbers in equations hence a thinking man's game. its also pretty hard to start puting numbers and calculating stuff in-game. when you are in the middle of the match its more of a feel that you get on your opponent that leads you to the right decision, and that feel will become more accurate as you learn to read him/her. i always said and will keep saying that poker is first and foremost a thinking, psychlogical game. math comes later. to tell the truth i never understood or used all the equations for EV, fold equity etc. i know pot odds, implied odds, equity and general idea about how often my opponent does what he does. other than that i use my logic to beat my competition. works for me pretty good. it also makes the game more "fun" as im sure it wasnt if it was all about math. but thats only me and maybe im wrong..... |
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| StasKo |
in a week from now we, jewish people, "celebrate" "yom kippur". its one day in a year when you say sorry for all the bad and wrong things that you did over the year and also forgive others who did you wrong. maybe say sorry and start fresh. people here are kind enough to forgive (i hope so  )
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| Brokerstar |
You are taking things that I have said, way out of context.
Did you see this in one of my videos? You're continuing to just see hands as in 'this is how this hand strength is played' As I've always said, how you play a hand depends on your opponent type, stack sizes, (if it's post flop) board textures. Your thoughts (as I have said a lot over the years) should never be "oh this is how this hand is played"
Again taking what I said totally out of context. I even remember talking about this with you from a why people tilt point of view. We were talking about bad beats (in another random session that I did just because I wanted to help you and didn't charge you for). I said it helps with tilt to mentally re-view bad beats and I said "for example even if you get it all in pre flop with AA and your opponent has like 99 and he spikes a 9 to win the pot, it's better to not see that as a bad beat and you were meant to win but instead understand that 99 is meant to win 20% of the time. How does that translate into no matter what, become a monster calling station and never fold a pair post flop?
No I never. And I think you'll find that when I asked you why you made the plays you did, you simply replied "because that's just what I do". Ron you say you've filled up lots of note books but you're clearly just not remembering the information. Like I give hundreds of examples of bet sizes and reasons why for differing player types and when I quizzed you on a couple of betting situations you were either over bet shoving or betting half pot but the thing that puzzled me was that you even said yourself you had no reason why "it's just what you do". I remember in the skype lessons that we spent longer than an hour on each lesson and I never minded taking longer to talk people through stuff if I had to. We spent about 6 hours on skype doing what's normally 4 hours work. I then sent you all of the same study material plus more to recap and watch again just incase there were any blanks. I've also spoke to you, well I don't even know how many times on skype to help you whenever you have needed it with hands and situations. I've done all that I can to try and make it make sense. I don't think it's possible for me to put my information any simpler. The thing that really gets me is that after I spend a bunch of time trying to explain things to you on skype and you come off as thankful and appreciate the fact that I've taken more time out of my day to help you long after the coaching had finished. for me to then come in here a few hours after and see you slating me, my material and suggest the course has made you a losing player is just a kick in the teeth. You seem fixated on the fact that big pairs and Ax pre flop seem to be the reason that you're losing. Well ok now you know how to play them. The thing is that you say you were playing them wrong because of a comment I made when trying to help with the concept of tilt yet when I explained how to play your big pairs against calling stations, tight players, aggressive players, pre and post flop (lots of situations) you have forgotton all of that? |
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| blsmur |
I did say I wasn't going to make any more post for fear of further alienating myself from the crew here
all I can say is I got it wrong and i am sure that the frustration came out in both my game and perhaps in my posts so i was playing on tilt and making wrong decisions for whatever reason i hopefully wont be making those bad decisions from now on thanks for trying and putting up with my complaints Ron Kirby |
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| kolonel |
can we possibly get this thread deleted back to the actual relevant parts of this sticky ?
would be a shame with all this crap getting caught up in it, as it is a very good article written by someone who knows what they are talking about. |
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| Zipps |
Good idea kolonel. That would be cool. | ||||||
| BetMagicMoney |
i could but broker said in an earlier post that he wanted it left as is! |
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| Brokerstar |
Yes you can delete it back to the core lessons of what the thread was intended to.
Seems a shame to destroy an awesome thread. I just meant in general I have no problem leaving things up as I firmly stand by what I teach and have used the same thing when doing bankroll challenges. But yes feel free to strip it back to the nuts and bolts of strategy. Broker |
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| kolonel |
You can move them all to the WOFTAM thread. 
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| BetMagicMoney |
cool i'll split it off and remove the remainder to the lounge to contain it there! EDIT: Done! |
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| blsmur |
guys i lknow i pisse doyu all off sorry
feel free to strip it back take out the derogatory remarks to please |
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| siminitt |
There is only one person who came out of this looking like a tit and it wasn't Broker -
The only person to blame in all of this is yourself - Yes you took the course etc that Broker offered but the simple fact is you should still be trying to improve elsewhere too its not one magical course and boom your a winner - so to then blame someone else for your mistakes is pathetic - Brokers course teaches you the fundamentals and a basic clear strategy to beat HUSNG (which is proven) I guess the lesson is if you did not understand something in the lesson then you should of addressed this to him and I'm 100% sure he would of advised you correctly. |
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| bridgegunner |
blsmur
i truely hope u get your mind and body right. Broker is one of the best coaches and people i have worked with and as some of you know i have worked with some world class people(broker included) Broker breaks things down into bit size pieces and teaches u the basics. but as many pros from this site taught me long ago this course is the basics on how to handle each player type and how to adjust,end game play,short stack play,so on. To take one piece of info and base your game around it like shoving a8 is a complete mistake. If i played my poker game around a single strategy i would be a losing player for life. There is no single right formula as red dog said there is +ev and optimal ev. sometimes folding aa has to happen on a flop or river but to fold it preflop is just an error based on what someone told u( as an example) You need to memorize the core value of the program and inject your own game into part of the strategy. As everyone will tell u your strategy doesnt matter as much as how your opponent plays and how you adjust to exploit what weakness he is giving u. Now to your posts and the way you handled yourself in the forums is completely unacceptable and breaks the core values of tag poker. I take personal offence to some of your comments towards red dog,broker,and the other pros on this site. If you shut your mouth for 5 minutes and listen and i mean listen to what they are telling u and do it u will be a winning player. I have gone over brokers course so many times and each time i watch it i learn something or revisit a concept i didnt have in my game. Broker has gone above and beyond any person i have come in contact in the poker world for myself and countless others and it sounds like he has done more for you then anyone. You should be greatfull of everything you have learned and chalk up the last 7 months to experience. Come back from this and really learn the concepts if you want to be a husng player. You were obv a winning player at one time u can be one again. Just shut up listen to the coaches and do everything you can to be a better poker player. I truely hope that smacks some sence into you cauz i am done listening to u rant and seeing everyone else in this forums stress of your unacceptable comments. Tag poker is the best poker forum and has the best members of anywhere in the poker world and i challenge u to say some of the things u said on here on a place like 2+2 and see what people say to u. Please at tag poker are here to give back like the community did for them when they started. We all pay it forward to each other . We dont just take take take and back stab and bitch when u dont get the results u think u should get. Ask anyone we all run bad we all get 2 outted on the river but its all in how u bounce back. WILL U BOUNCE BACK ???? OR WILL U GO??? U DECIDE |