| Archive for Tagpoker Forum A friendly place for winning poker players to share their strategy to making money playing poker. |
| nitid1 |
Slow bankroll buildingHi all,i took the course about 3 weeks ago when my account was about 28 US$. I played the micro stakes HU at pokerstars 1.2$ and am now up to 41 US$ with a high of 45 US$ yesterday. Had some bad luck hitting me like my AA busting twice against cards like 54 or 99. The nature of the game it guess... My fist impression is quite good. However i do have the feeling winning does not come easy. I feel like this is actually working. I have not tilted once untill now and this will remain my first focus. Many sessions are like one win, one loss, one win, one loss, ... This it quite frustrating and makes you wonder how big your edge can ever be. If brokerstar reaches 20% ROI, this means he wins 8 out of 10 games right? I have trouble with agressive players and sometimes i feel like the tag style from the course is inviting players to attack me since the style teaches to limp a lot preflop. Once they got the hang of it they seem to continue to do this even after the flop. Will stick to the course material for now. My goal is to reach 50$ and then move up to the 1.5 EURO games, about 2 $ or 3.5$ games. Will keep my progress posted, but will be slow since i do not play that much. Best of luck to you all. |
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| sandman369 |
ROI isn't the same as win %, and it's impossible to have an 80% win rate over a large sample. ROI = return on investment. So if you play 100 games of $1.2, you've spent $120. 20% ROI means you've profited $24 from those 100 games.
GL at the tables! Don't be afraid to post questions around the forums, lots of good players here to give good advice |
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| blsmur |
I would be happy to review a few games with you anytime | ||||||
| nitid1 |
Thx for the comments!
Blsmur. If we would review some games, how would this be done? Do i need to send you a file or do i need special program for that? I have a pretty busy life so if i would start with sweating some games i think it would be best to reserve like 1 evening per week to focuss on just that. Do you play the tag style like Brokerstar? At pokerstars you can find me with playername 'nitid1' Regards |
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| nitid1 |
Sandman,
So if you say play 10 1.38 $ games, total investment is 13.8$ If you win 5 and loose 5 your winrate is 50% and your ROI is 0%. (net win 0) If you win 6 and loose 4 your winrate is 60% and your ROI is 10% (net win 1.38$) If you win 7 and loose 3 your winrate is 70% and your ROI is 20% (net win 2.76$) Is this correct or am i missing something? Also if i consider the rake (0.12$) at the stakes i am playing a winrate of 60% i would just be over breaking even. (0.12 x 10 =1.2$) stakes 1.38$ +0.12$: 60% Winrate for 10 games, net win 1.38$, minus rake 1.2$ = 0.18$ profit stakes 3.29$ + 0.21$: 60% winrate for 10 games, net win 3.29$, minus rake 2.1$=1.19$ profit conclusion: The higher the stakes, the lower your winrate can be to make a profit and if you get rakeback it can make a huge difference. Must move up asap i think. Thanks in advance for any comments. |
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| blsmur |
hi just call me on skype
blsmur we can take it from there happy to help out if I am awake we are 10 hours in front of GMT but I am sure we can find some crossover time by the way in husng if you win 5 games and lose 5 games you losing money but if win about 5.5 games you breaking even of perhaps making a slight profit so the goal is 6 + games out of 10 I am sure there a players that can do better than that at low stakes but at higher stakes it gets harder mind you $ 1 to $20 is low stakes and you should be able to play them when you bankroll will allow |
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| sandman369 |
You have to include the rake in ROI calculations, because you are actually spending a.k.a. investing that money.
So 10 1.38 + .12 games = $15 invested 5 wins = 5 x 2.76 = 13.80 ... 1.20 loss 6 wins = 6 x 2.76 = 15.56 ... 0.56 profit At the 3.29 + .21 games, 10 games costs $35 5 wins = 5 x 6.58 = 32.90 ... 2.10 loss 6 wins = 6 x 6.58 = 39.48 ... 4.48 profit That's why having rakeback is a VERY good idea. And yeah as you get higher up in stakes the rake is lower % wise. |
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| nitid1 |
Hello Guys,
update for the week: I am back at 35.65$ from 45 US$ (started around 28$) So 10$ lost in last 2 weeks. When i check my stats in playerscope: 195 games played. Last 7 days i am ITM 45.45% last 50 games i am ITM 52% last 100 games i am ITM 55% These looked obviously better 2 weeks ago (i reached 65%), but still, rake is costing me a lot (195 games x 0.12$= 23.4$), even i i have not been on the heavy loosing side. Why did i lose (as far a i can honestly say): 1. Well if i would have avoided going all in in the first few hands of a game just because i think someone wants to bluff me (image building) off a scary board when i have top pair it would have saved me 3 buyins. I would consider this a leak. 2. I have lost allmost EVERY preflop all in situation in the last week. Aces busting, My top pair hitting their straight or flush. AK vs 10/9, QQ vs A3... Actually at this stage every time i get all in i close my eyes and just start laughing when i see the result. REALLY. I got lucky once with my AJ hitting a J against a 44. Even had some post flop all ins turn bad like, my 2 pair against their pair making trips etc... I start thinking about avoiding all ins all together, but that would be a bit harsch i guess. Is this the reality of poker? Is it VERY dependent of your all in results? Or are there any guys who can outplay their oponent without ever going all in, that is as long as stacks are about equal? Will keep you updated. Good luck. |
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| blsmur |
hi I think you can safely not be all in above 20 bb with almost any hand
so if you find your self being all in with more than 20 bb then it is not necessary try playing a few more flops or just fold pre unless you have a big hand ie AA KK QQ if you have done Brokers course you better do some more study on it if you want someone to chat to skype me |
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| nitid1 |
Hi all,
end of the week. My bankroll is at 32$, so i am almost back from where i started. Roi over last 50 games is 44% Roi over last 100 is 53% Wil check the course again and see if it helps and also will do a leakfinder with brokerstar. Just played a loose player that would pot bet every flop, and being card dead this really sucked. When i got bottom pair he would just barrel the turn/river and make me fold pffffffffffffffffffffff I really do not feel like having any edge at all in general at this moment. Makes me want to raise and reraise it all and look for a hyper agressive strategy, but i know it is the tilt monster coming up... Have a nice new years eve and good luck! |
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| kolonel |
Why don't you see if Jakester has a spot for his free coaching. Couldn't hurt.
http://tagpoker.myfastforum.org/about3916.html |
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| nitid1 |
Great idea! thx for the tip, already asked him...
Regards! |
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| nitid1 |
Hi everybody,
Account at 40.58$, still at 1.5$ games. Was up again to 44$, but then lost some again to more agro players. Last 50 games: 54% winrate Last 100 games: 55% winrate Avoiding all in situations early on definitely improves my winrate. Passive players are a dream to play against especially tight onces. Agressive players are harder to control, so still have lots to learn. Will keep you informed. Regards, Nicolai |
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| blsmur |
hey avoiding some unnecessary all ins can only help your game one of the great player/coaches says we can all in 66 at 40 bb how ever I now elect to just play the hand as opposed to shove or 3 bet shove against Aggro players that are loose to then perhaps 66 all in pre is ok mathematically it is correct to shove but it doesn't make us enough in my opinion regards ron |
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| U Cook Socks |
Not sure you have a big enough size sample to come to that conclusion. Obviously depends on what kinds of hands you are getting it in with. I would imagine you $/hour would be better if you take the all ins (providing they are + ev of course) as your game time would be cut. Not sure if that's right, but I would think it is. Doesn't mean shove all in by the way Blsmur, you seem obsessed by shoving all in. Just cos the chips go in, doesn't mean it's always got to be a shove pre flop, or whatever. for example If I have pocket 9s and I 3bet them first hand, and get shoved on, I'm not folding, unless I am playing someone I have a ton of history with, and I know their range is to strong to call, but that's rare. |
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| blsmur |
hey there blazing you must have miss read my post I was agreeing about not getting it in pre as much I found i do better not shoving and trying to play the hand ' this is a result of my own observations and my ability to lose an all in no matter how much better my hand is preflop , I seem to lose way more than I should regards Ron |
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| doodiewiz |
so what hands would you fold preflop Blsmur? Not AA, KK, QQ, JJ, AK, AQ? | ||||||
| blsmur |
well it depends on the player type but yesterday I folded AQ pre as i had no reason to play it for an all in also i just 2x raised most of my small pairs and play from there hokie grag says we can shove 66 with 40bb but i find that i lose to much even tho it is slightly +ev if i lose the game over it what is the point from my perspective it seems to me when i shove pre and i get called i lose way to often and nearly always a dog so at the $7 games on stars it seem s that making these shove is wrong so i try to adjust to my opponent and if the mad all in tard then yes i playing my pairs aggressive but against the better players it seem s to be better to try and play it out with 20 bb and less i am more willing to shove fold sort of game of course I have found this last week i nearly always losing to any shove no matter what hand i have i guess this is just variance but it is starting to piss me off eg AA lose to kq 66 lose to 77 kj lose to kt i have heaps of them and today was no exception ok I'm done bitching lol |
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| BetMagicMoney |
this sounds like a mistake! |
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| blsmur |
well perhaps it was but i did fine in that game |
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| doodiewiz |
Generally and i'm not a 100%, but i think a lot of peoples cut off point is AJ. For instance they wouldn't call a shove when deep with AJ, but they would AQ. Maybe they'd call AJs. Anyway don't worry about variance i just lost ten flips in a row when i was ahead nearly every time. It happens. Stilll managed to win one of the games. Was a comedy show. He finally lost on the 6th flip!
Everyttime i kept typing in the chatbox 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6..Yay!....lol..was feeling a bit tilted at that point! |
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| blsmur |
well it good to hear I am not the only one even had a player apologize for calling with junk and winning another guy called with 23 and makes 2 pair for 50 bb against my TT so i know what it is like when i try so damn hard to be playing right , i figure the less flips i take the more chance i have of winning |
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| Jakester1288 |
Think of the EV boys, think of the EV. | ||||||
| BetMagicMoney |
word |
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| BetMagicMoney |
honestly your doing it wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!!! my lest 5-6 months has been a whole continuses list of "lol i got it as a 70% fav and lost..... again!!!!!!" But the thing is you can't think like that!!! you have to sit in front of your PC and when you lose the game on 70:30 flip realize, i could have played better!!! as soon as you except this the sooner you winning will increase! |
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| U Cook Socks |
You need to go away, and find out the answer to the question I highlighted, once you know the answer, then you will instantly be a better player. If Hokie says something, he is more likely to be right than you are, right ? |
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| blsmur |
I am sure your right and yes i have done the calculations with excel program etc and yes it is + ev but not much so if we have 1500 chips and we make plus ev play that makes us 25 chips as opposed to folding it and losing 20 it is not a lot in the overall score of things. So if we wait a bit and the blinds get up a bit then when we make our +ev play instead of making 25 chips we might make 100 or 200 so I can see that waiting is better ev I do like what hokie says in his vids but I am wondering how many people have watched them and are now adjusting to what he says because so many now are shoving with any pp at almost any blinds because it is technically +ev but i seem to lose so many of these so called flips and even when i have 99 i get called by 44 and lose so while I conceed Hokie Greg knows way more than me about HUSNG I am entitled to adjust my game regards Ron |
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| kolonel |
How do you bank EV ?!? |
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| U Cook Socks |
I doubt many players are open shoving 66 for 75bb. Effective stacks sizes are important when making any decision.
The 44 v 99 I assume you mean this hand. Poker Stars, $6.71 + $0.29 NL Hold'em Tournament, 20/40 Blinds, 2 Players [URL="http://www.leggopoker.com"]LeggoPoker.com[/URL] - [URL="http://www.leggopoker.com/converter"]Hand History Converter[/URL] Hero (BB): 495 BTN: 2,505 Pre-Flop: (60) 4  4 dealt to Hero (BB)
BTN raises to 80, Hero raises to 495 and is All-In, BTN calls 415 Flop: (990) T  J J (2 Players - 1 is All-In)
Turn: (990) 4 (2 Players - 1 is All-In)
River: (990) A (2 Players - 1 is All-In)
Results: 990 Pot Hero showed 4 4 and WON 990 (+535 NET)
BTN showed 9 9 and LOST (-475 NET)
Hero: U Cook Socks (me) Villain Blsmur No one made a mistake in that hand, it would be a huge mistake for me to fold, or flat, it would be an even bigger mistake for you to fold. I played pretty poorly in that game to be honest, and I got lucky a few times, but that is good for you, even though you lost, if your ran 44 v 99 all day long , you would win a lot of money. |
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| kierkegaard1 |
blsmur, shoving small pocket pairs out of position OVER AN OPENING RAISE (not an open shove) for >50bb's against a high frequency opener will often be the correct play.
try not to be results orientated. |
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| nitid1 |
Hi everybody,
great to see some reactions on this post. I am sure i have been shoving to light in the very beginning, even with the smallest pairs and AT, AJ. So at this moment 99+ is the standard. When the blinds go up this range grows. When it comes to 3 betting, 4 betting and even more i have no clue whatsoever about the dynamics and logic. If anyone knows where i can find good readings about this, would be great... I have been thinking a lot about +EV and this is my question. The whole debate is about maximising expectation. Now when you play a super fish that is totally passive and just is run over by your game it seems that shoving 99+ compared to just letting him fold his chips away and occasionally make a stand (and let him have it) is not the highest EV. EV is not all about the cards is it? Maybe at higher stakes where you meet the tough and thinking players it becomes much more about getting the tiniest of edges? So the higher you go in stakes the smaller the edges you need to persue? Is my logic sound? Thx and good luck. |
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| blsmur |
I like your thinking but as in so many of the posts I make on here many will disagree so just try it and see how you go there is an excel chart that allows you to put in hands and chips and you can see if any hand is + ev it you want it let me know regards Ron |
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| nitid1 |
Hi Ron,
The excell would be interesting. I am using pokerstove now, a bit the same? And when it comes to others that disagree, i really do not mind and actually hope to get as many opinions from others as possible since i can only grow as a player by expanding my knowledge as much as possible. It takes good players years to really get an in depth understanding of this game and i do not see myself as a good player. The more i learn about poker the more i realise that at the top, there will be hudge sharks with quite some brain power. Any tips i get from them is great. Greets |
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| blsmur |
well I am not one of them lol hit me up on skype and i send you that excel file or you can search it on google the guy that wrote is member of 2+ 2 but its a free download endgame calculator |
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| blsmur |
yes I agree with you and I normally do just that however I may not call an open shove with 44 for 50 bb , I dont know if that is correct or not but I feel I can wait another hand or two before I need to be calling |
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| kierkegaard1 |
fold seems fine here |
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| nitid1 |
Hi allHere an update.Balance back down to 36.1$ Winrate last 50 games: 54% Winrate last 100 games: 52% Winrate last 250 games:52.4% This is really a rollercoaster. Lost 6 of last 7 games. Still i am in positive territory after more than 250 games, so that is about 30 us$ of rake paid. With a little rakeback my account would look a bit better. I feel i am playing to loose PF and not enough for value, especially against other loose guys. I have these moments i just call along (not wanting to give up) and it is quite a strong urge, so i think this may be a bit of a personality issue i have to work on. Be more of a nit. What winrate should i expect at the 1.5$ micro's on a large sample before moving up? Greets and good luck. |
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| nitid1 |
Hi all,
just a quick update. I cannot get my stats today, do not know why (playerscope does not seem to work). My account is now at 46.51$  , and that is a new high. 320 Games played so far and started from 28$.
In the last weeks i tried to be tighter and also be more "scared" after the flop when it comes to folding big turn and river bets with possible straights , flushes and pairs on the board. I lost to many times putting the others on blufs and being wrong about it. I now focus on value mostly and the results have been better. The cards of course have been kind to me and i got lucky sometimes, but then again i also lost 2 games this week because i had no good cards at all against rather agro players and so had to fold myself to death... Not very pleasant, but not the end of the world either. I think i may have been to agro in the past because i was afraid of being seen as a weak player... That is it for now. Good luck for all! |
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| nitid1 |
Little update:
Account: 50.66$ (up from 28$ start, right after taking the course) Winrate: Last 50 games: 62% Last 100 games: 59% Will try to reach 60$ or 70$ before taking a stab at the 3.5$ games, not sure yet. Good Luck. |
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| nitid1 |
Update:
Account 54.34$ Winrate: Last 50 games: 64% Last 100 games: 60% Still improving. Can do a bit better i feel, i lost a game due to playing very tired and yesterday once again i put a heavy raiser on a paired flop on a bluff and called with my pair. Still i managed to calm down in general and lay down more hands and it seems to be helping my game a lot. Any experienced player that could give some hints as to what winscore they had at the micro's? Suppose cash or balance would be irrelevant, at what ITM% of ROI% over lets say 500 games would you decide to moove up? THX Good Luck! |
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| BetMagicMoney |
nice how many games have you played in the month? | ||||||
| nitid1 |
this month only: 103 games
Since buying the course: 28nov2011: 323 Start balance for HU: 28$ |
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| welshdentist |
Keep going, winrate % I'd love to know too....
The rakes a killer at the $1.50's |
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| nitid1 |
Some numbers:
323 games played Net profit: 55$ - 28$ (start balance) = 27$ net profit Rake paid: 323 x 0.12 = 38.76$ Rake paid + net profit = 27$ + 38.76$ = 65.76 $ earned total 65.76$ / 323 games = 0.204$ profit per game, before rake paid. Total amount risked: 323 x 1.5$ = 484.5$ Total money won before rake: 65.00$ = 13.41% ROI Total earnings net after rake: 27.00$ = 5.5% ROI |
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| sandman369 |
imo you should get that "profit per game before rake" and "total profit excluding rake" out of your head altogether. It's meaningless. Paying the rake is part of the buy-in. I only look at rake paid to see how many FPPs I'm earning over a certain time period.
Nice progress so far though! |
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| nitid1 |
THX!
I like to calculate return including rake as well just to see how rakeback might affect future earnings. Besides that it does not have any relevance indeed. |
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| nitid1 |
update:
Account: 62.66$ (up from 28$), still at 1.5$ games. Games played: 338 Hardest thing is getting any volume because of my job, family etc... Still i will continue this. Goal is to rise to a level where even playing low volume can make me something, and to have a way of earning some extras on free days in the future... Zipps did a HH for me and has been giving me some tips and i am now rewatching the "this is how we roll" series from Brokerstar. I can certainly still improve since i try to play to "deceptive", bluffy at times with wrong betsizes etc... No need to get fancy at these stakes... At these levels i guess most people play for fun and some actually because they hope to win easy money going all nuts and agressive... Good Luck! |
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| nitid1 |
Hi again,
because of the freezing temperatures i was home today from work and decided to play some volume. Got about 23 games down and am now up to 66.35$ This is the highest my account has been since i started playing poker and this time no bonusses were paid, so pure winnings... The course certainly put me in the right direction. I am almost ready for the 3.5$ games... Good Luck! |
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| nitid1 |
Running bad!
Back To 58.33$ after reaching 68$ 
This mostly because of me playing like a total ass and some games been coolered, but mostly my fault. I find myself in a strange mood not actually caring anymore about the result and when the games just take to long i find myself shoving or barreling just to finish them. I may need a break. I guess this may be like some kind of demotivation because after running good, you suddently feel totally helpless and you start wondering why you did run good in the first place. Whatever. This is poker i guess. It is not about linear results. Will relax a bit and then start over when it feels like fun again. |
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| nitid1 |
Hi again,
Lost another 3 buyins. Down to 52.5$ So that is 16$ gone in 4 days playing the micro's. 36% ITM over last 25 games 50% ITM over last 50 games My biggest leaks: Having NO defence at all against: 1. Agro preflop players, that follow up with 2 of 3 barrels and attack you almost everytime from OP after you raised. Each time i am card dead they eat me alive... Lots of time they even manage to show me the nuts after i call them down with second or middle pair.... 2. Calling 3 barrels or shoves with anything less then trips... Lets see if this continues i will be back from where i started a while ago lol 3 Loosers for today so break time... I did have fun playing tough. Greets and good luck... |
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| nitid1 |
Hi again,
Back to 61.86$. Running good. Have played my A game. Instead of focussing purely on results i have started an "A game" file with my HH for all games i believe i truely played well, even if i lost them. I will now focuss on these files for improving my game whenever a HH review is done. "A" game means: 1. Not drunk, undisturbed, not tired, not more than 3 losers in a row. 2. Played with a patient and calm attitude. 3. Played according to sound BR management. Focuss is now to get as many games as possible in my A file. I already found myself refusing to play several times because conditions could not be met. Greets and good luck. |
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| Brokerstar |
If you play your A game all the time then you're sure to build a solid roll. Most people just don't realize how much of their win rate (or lack of) is solely due to this.
Keep it up. Broker |
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| blsmur |
sounds good to me although i never get drunk but bad mood and tired certainly reflect on my play ,I have quit caffeine just to help with it and it has made a difference to my BR |
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| nitid1 |
Hi all,
Back at 65.90$. Winning like 15 games in 20. All A games so far and rebuilding now. Will not add to this post again untill i breached 70$ and am ready for the 3.5$ games. Greets and good luck! |
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| blsmur |
well done mate | ||||||
| nitid1 |
Hey all,
Happy to announce i have taken my roll to a new high 71$ lol. So in about 400 games from 28$(after taking the course) to 71$, with 2 x 10 buyin swings in between. This feels good. I upped the discipline lately and it worked and lots of my beginner mistakes i now start avoiding so i am hopefull my game can get way better still. I think posting hands that i really did not feel good or safe about was the best i could do for my game since when i play now i play hand per hand trying to take the right decision each time, not caring about the result to much. About 15 - 20% roi in last games and only 1 game played i do not consider A game since i started my A game files. Shoved with a flush draw on flop thinking i had a pair as well, but gues what: i did not, so that really was some kind of wishfull and speedy thinking. I got lucky tough lol I will now go to the 3.5$ games so i can still fall back a bit but no worries. I am confident i am ready for the 3.5$ games now. I will start another thread with my 3.5$ journey, so including having to fall back to 1.5$ untill 70$ barrier is safely breached. Greets and good luck! |