| Archive for Tagpoker Forum A friendly place for winning poker players to share their strategy to making money playing poker. |
| savrababa |
Ok.. now what?Hey guys!It's been a month since I've joined Tagpoker. During this month I managed to do the following: - Completed Brokers lessons 1,2,3 of the condensed course - Played 150 games with a ROI of 1% - Watched many videos I understand that a 150 break even streak should be normal and that I am not a great player yet but I am starting to get tilted in most of my games lately and i think it is because the results are not coming. 
So my question is what now.. I spend around 3 hours a day for poker. I am actually looking for a plan in regards to how much time should i spend on playing, how much on watching videos and reviewing the lessons and should I start trying to get some people to sweat me or anything else? Maybe I should start playing with things like pokerstove? Or get a replayer to start reviewing some hands? I know that eventually I should do all of these but I am trying to find out on what should i focus on right now and make better long term plans. |
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| nachtwacht |
Re: Ok.. now what?I will answer 2, but put them in the correct order.
How do you expect to find your own errors if you are not replaying your hands and look for them ? Maybe you still make so many that you don't need to ofcourse, that is very well possible, but if so, you can't expect to do any better than play breakeven wich at that point in your poker career is actualy allready doing very well !
How do you expect to analyse your hands without knowing if you are making +EV decisions. Only pokerstove (and others that cost money) can help you with that. Sure, all the other stuff is also important, but I would say these two should be at the start. |
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| savrababa |
Thanks for the answer.
I would really have given these the less importance for now..
Made it very clear 
I think I make a lot of mistakes when I slip into my C game (which is often) so I will start reviewing my games. |
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| nachtwacht |
When you often play your C game, playing break even is actualy quit an accomplishment
GL ! |
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| U Cook Socks |
Re: Ok.. now what?
PokerStove is free, and more than sufficent for a beggining player (and advanced for that matter) to do all the calculations they need. Obviously you can take it a step further, but I don't think it is needed as a beggining player to be honest , pokerstove is just fine. Also, this is my opinion, but getting better at picking up on player tendancies, learning how to exploit them, and generally getting better at hand reading , is far more important than running hands through pokerstove. That's not to say it's not important at all , of course it is, but if you can't read hands at all, it will become pretty useless to you. Download the universal replayer. Run some games through it. Each hand, put your villain on a range on each street, based on his tendancies, on his actions, and any information you have about him. Then try to work out what the best decision is based on all of this. Narrow his range down on each street. Ask questions in the forum, post hands, ask more questions, eventually you will get more of a handle on what certain players do in certain situations. |
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| savrababa |
Thanks for breaking it down Blazing.
Downloading the universal replayer right now. I was never too good with doing homework in anything I've done. Most of the time I managed "floating" in most tasks just by learning 1 or 2 things and jumping into the action so I appreciate breaking things into baby steps, because I really don't know how to approach this. Do you think I should spend more time on this than playing for now? |
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| MrJayOMG |
I also think its useful to post hands that you think are bad & good, a deferent perspective will uncover different leaks in your game. | ||||||||||
| U Cook Socks |
Well, yes and no. I mean there is no substitute for playing, and gaining experience, but obviously it will help you having some kind of idea what you are doing when you play. If you have completed Brokers course, then you should have the 3 main player types down pretty well. If not, then go back over the videos until you do get them. It will help you know what you are looking for when you are playing an opponent. So maybe to start, pick out some old Hand History's, go through them, and try and identify what kind of player you are playing, and how Broker taught you to exploit them. Then you should have learned something there, take it in to your next session with you. Then review your session , I personally find doing session reviews before a session works best, not straight after you have played. Hopefully, you will have improved a little from the last time, doesn't mean your results will be better, but if your decisions are better, that is what matters. If you don't know , then post some hands on the forum, and ask. There are some real good players on here, that will help you out. The idea being , you constantly try to improve, even if it's slowly, you are already winning by 1% , which is better than most poker players are doing. |
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| savrababa |
Ok I'll try doing that.
I'll review a few games today and from tomorrow i'll start reviewing last days games before I play and so on. Once I get a hang of this I'll post one or two hands here. Thanks again for the help it is most appreciated. |
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| nachtwacht |
Better to do the review just after you played (in my opinion that is) You then better remember why you took certain desicions. |
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| sootedninjas |
Re: Ok.. now what?
^^^ this... |
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| peteoaten |
helloWhat stakes are you playing?You may be playing too high at the moment. I suggest you play the $2 games to start. Im usally a 6max player and recently got into HU after watching the free vids on here, at 6max i play 50NL, i set aside a roll for HU so see how high i can go, after 3 days im rolled for the $5 HU games. Also if you play on stars the mini 4man HU tourneys are good value, as you return $5.90 for a win instead of 1.80 which means you can play one lose one and still profit. If you play on Stars PM me on here, ill sweat you. Once you get the hang of it, its easy money. |
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| Refraction |
Re: Ok.. now what?This is the dogs bollocks:
That's what poker is all about. This is great prep-work:
First... You won't succeed at poker if you EVER stop "doing your homework", if you stop working on your game. There's no magic formula that will beat the games for you. Either you work hard, study loads and use your head or you can forget it. Talent only goes so far, it's the hard work that gets you there. Second: yes. If you're serious about poker, than yes. If you're serious about the game, than this is like professional sports. Now think about this: do professional sportsmen spend more time in practices, on the gyms and on the video room, or do they spend more time competing?
Both players are right. If you review your game just after you played you can better remember, and therefore analyze, certain decisions. On the other hand, reviewing sessions before you play will get you in the zone working as a warming up. So, what should you do? Keep the warm up like Saddler suggests, but every time you struggle in a game (despite the result), or anytime you start tilting/steaming, log off and go analyze the game there and then. Take care. *EDIT*: Oh, and anytime you struggle with a decision it's not a bad idea either to analyze it straight away AND the next day. |
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| peteoaten |
I cant send PM by the way so if you contact me supply an email address. | ||||||||||
| savrababa |
I'm playing the $5.25 on Full Tilt. I've been playing poker for 6 months now losing at first, slightly winning later. Slightly losing overall. I picked the $5 because I don't feel that there is any difference between the players that play $2 and $5, I have a bankroll of $300 so I can handle the variance and I've just moved to the $5 in the other formats I 've been playing so it felt like a step back to play $2..
Basically I've been spending way more on studying than playing the last 6 months. I read books, forum posts, watched videos e.t.c but I only played close to 500 games. I realized at some point that it takes more than being a smart guy and reading a few books to become a winner in this game and I started to understand the importance of putting time on the tables. Then again HU is new to me and I am feeling like I need more time practicing than competing but I guess I was stuck on this new revelation of playing more. I will definitely do more homework next month and start to take time away from studying into playing gradually as I start feeling more comfortable with my game. peteoaten my e-mail is savrababa@hotmail.com my skype name is savrababa if you are on skype i might have you added already cause I added all the people I found on the skype post. If you feel like you are up for the task then I am more than willing to have someone "coaching" me personally. You can give me homework as you see fit or whatever
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| rekop |
Quote: I'm playing the $5.25 on Full Tilt. I've been playing poker for 6 months now losing at first, slightly winning later. Slightly losing overall.
I picked the $5 because I don't feel that there is any difference between the players that play $2 and $5, I have a bankroll of $300 so I can handle the variance and I've just moved to the $5 in the other formats I 've been playing so it felt like a step back to play $2.. Hey Sevra, I don't think playing the $2 is a step-bacl at all - in fact it is a step forward! While it's true your BR is sufficient to cover swings, the truth is BR management is based on the premise that you are a winning player. A losing player will evenually lose all their BR as will a breakeven player (if you think about it). And overall you are hovering around the breakeve/slightly losing area. So play the lower stakes in this situation and the higher ones when you are winning. Concentrate on improving your game at the cheaper level, Implement with what Broker has taught you. As you said yourself there is not much difference between the $2 and $5 players, so when you are able to crush the $2 level you will find youself at the $10 and higher before you know it.
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| savrababa |
When you put it that way it really looks like more +EV to play the $2..
There is one more negative fact about the $2 level though. Rake is more considerable so you need a higher winrate to be winning right? So, because I have for some reason pressured myself too much and expect to get results too soon, maybe that will influence me negatively.. 
Maybe I should just slap myself once or twice to get me back on track. By the way the answers on this thread made me come out of my own little world a little bit more and be more realistic. That always gives me more focus, so again many thanks. |
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| rekop |
well you make a correct point about the higher rake at the $2s. But the point is to get the fundamewntals correct, making as many correct decisions as possible and don't worry about the results. They will flow as a result of better play. All the best at the tables!
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| YATHINNK |
If you have the roll, don't move down. I don't really see much point in it tbh unless you're forced to. There's no skill increase really, so moving down to practice is sorta pointless. I understand where the guys telling you to move down are coming from but you're overolled for the 5s as it is.
Seriously, even if you just play a semi decent game, you won't go bust at the 5s. |
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| icemanv6 |
Well i disagree yathinkk. Why should he potentially lose more money when he can improve his game first for less of a cost, then when he is beating the 2s he will have actually more money for the 5s and probably can then note quicker up above that level. Makes sense if your breakeven to beat a lower level first and lose less then move up. | ||||||||||
| peteoaten |
Moving down is a sound idea.
In my case im rolled for the $30 games, however my mindset is this. Im learning HU, ive not played HU before so the lower stakes are my apprenticeship. I have to beat the $2 games before i can beat the $5 games and so on. If your rolled for the $5 games then getting sucked out is not going to effect you as much at the $2 games as it will the $5 games. Think of the lower levels as your practice ground not something to skip just because you have the roll to do so. Take it a step at a time. Use your roll to your advantage not disadvantage. Look at it this way, once your competent in the strategy, you can jump right up to the $5 games without having to grind out your bankroll first. learn it at the 2's crush it at the 5's |
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| nachtwacht |
To start with, I am following this conversation half so what I am going to write below is not a comment aimed at a specific person or about anyones game, it is just a general comment !
(hopefully this disclaimer helps so nobody starts crying )
Anyone even remotely playing a decent game and using sound bankroll management would not have to worry about moving down. Since we are talking about moving down, the game or bankroll management apperantly is not as decent as we usualy fool ourself into thinking it is. |
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| U Cook Socks |
Hey man.
I will start off by saying this. Playing at a lower stake, will always be a smaller mistake than playing to high. You may be paying more rake, but you are giving yourself a bigger cushion while learning the fundamentals. It does also need saying though, that the player pool at the $5s, is hardly any better, if at all than the $2s, so moving to the $5s as soon as you feel comfortable is definitely a good idea. The good thing is, that you are thinking, that gives you a head start on most the players you will be playing. The fact that you are prepared to move down, is a very good thing. You will no doubt need to do this several times on your journey to where ever you want to go with poker. I presume you read my thread in the Heads Up stategy section, this was specifically written for players like yourself, needing a helping hand , getting up and running. There is some good stuff in there, that will help you on your way. I will pick a few things out now for you to think about though. I started out much like yourself, I had played poker in the past, but never any Heads up. I started with a similar roll to you too. I became a winning player at the $5s and $10s by simply watching the free videos on this site, and posting hand, and questions in the forums. If you have done the course with Broker, then that combined with the rest of the recources is more than enough tools to get you beating the $10s at least. I'd say even higher, but for now, lets just stick with aiming for the $10s. So utilise the recources available, the videos from BrokerStars course are a good starting place, watch them until you really get them. Then start watching the free videos, and see how he impliments what he teaches. Compare some of his lines , to what you have been doing. I am serious, that should be enough to get you winning, if you really take it all in, and make changes to your game. Decide what stakes you are going to play at. If you want to play $2s for a while, then don't worry about it. I have always played with a very cushioned roll, it's personal choice. Some prefer taking shots, moving up and down all the time. That's fine too, providing you do move down when you should. The bankroll ladder in my thread is a good thing to follow, you don't have to make it 30 buyins though, change it to 50, 75, or even a 100 if you want to be that nitty, it's fine, just decide what you want to to, then set yourself targets to move up, and limits to move back down. Then your plan is coming together a bit. Understand this, poker is a very frustrating game, a 150 games is a very small sample. I have had 400 game break even stretches, better players than myself have had longer for sure. Concentrate on making good decisions, that's it. We all have the same cards, it is what we do with them. Limit the damage through the bad runs, then cream off as much as you can through the upswings. Even a 20% winner will have downswings, so a marginal winner is going to get far more of them. Hope that helped in some way anyway. Good Luck. |
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| savrababa |
OK I think I'll try playing my next 100 games at the $2 level and see how that goes and reevaluate from there.
After all as Blazing said I need to get used to moving down for when I will have to, so I'll do that as a lesson in discipline too. Blazing I have read your thread more than once and although I did not post anything there, let me say it here.. Thank you for taking the time to make one of the most helpful threads in this forum. 
I completely agree with that and maybe it is one of the reasons I am tilting lately. I mean I feel like I have grasped the main concept of Brokers lessons and seen them several times in action in the videos. So I guessed that if a player like Brokerstar has a ROI of say 20% then I would expect myself to have 5%. I feel I have a lot of work to do to fine tune my game but I would expect better results given my current understanding of his method. Leakfinder session is not far so that will be a good indicator of the level of truth in the above statement.. 
I fully understand that 150 games is a very small sample but the fact that I feel like I am playing better than my results along with the fact that most of my opponents are just horrible makes it very hard to not let it affect me. I guess that after I have put a couple of 400 break even stretches under my belt as you had, it will be easier to not let them affect me since I will have experienced the variance of the game first hand. But right now I am struggling to get a good run so that I can feel that I am on the right track and get my confidence back. As for reviewing my game, I did do it for 5 matches so far and I am have found many mistakes which I can identify pretty easily when I am watching the game without being in the heat of the battle.. |
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| U Cook Socks |
You are doing all the right things to be honest mate, so just keep going. You wont get many 400 game break even stretches at the $5s n $10s really, cos the players are so bad , and easy to exploit.
It is frustrating when you are outplaying players and not getting results, but always remember that is why they come back for more. You need to kind of get it in to your head, that in the short term, results are nothing, it's a long term game, and you have to be patient, and just concentrate on making good decisions. If you are spotting mistakes in your reviews, just try to cut some of them out next time you play. If you tweak one leak every session, you will get better and better as you go. You can't expect to play like BrokerStar after watching a few videos, he is a very experienced, and clever player, I doubt he got there overnight, it takes time, and hard work. 5% Is very achievable though, so that should be your goal for the next 200 games say. If you don't make it, don't worry to much, just keep cutting out the mistakes, and improving, and it will come I promise you. One more thought before I go. I don't know if I have ever said this before, but I ask myself the question all the time. If you can't deal with doing the right things and not winning, if you can't deal with variance, and play without tilting, then maybe poker isn't for you. I'm not trying to put you off honestly, but I do ask myself quite often if I am actually cut out mentally to ever really make it to the top. I have some ability (I'm told ) But I find it very mentally straining sometimes. I recently had a $700 downswing, it's very hard to deal with, and it's only going to get harder if I continue to move up.
Don't give up though, you can do it, if you really want it, and are prepared to put the effort in, it is all on a plate for you. |
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| savrababa |
Definitely not as desperate to consider giving up but seeing you say that really is a hint of the pain that is about to follow.
I really prefer it for people to be harsh. As I said before it brings me down to reality and that greatly helps me focus. The mental focus that is required in this game is the ability that I feel is required to get you to the top and I think that most players (especially new ones) overlook the importance of it. That being said I have no clue if I am cut out mentally to make it to the top but I will definitely give it my best. |
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| U Cook Socks |
Yep, there is the key right there. Give it your all, and good things will follow. I'm not one of those naturally gifted people, that process information like an I5, processor. I do however have a lot of determination to succeed in everything I do. Good luck anyway, I hope it goes well, give me a shout if you need any help. |
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| YATHINNK |
I still do think that 150 BI is a little too padded, but it ain't my roll to say. If you're really not bothered about maximising you may as well play the 1s if you just wanna learn. | ||||||||||
| savrababa |
Update:
- Played 20 games at the $2 level - Won 14! Been really focused in these games and very happy with the way I played for the most part. I think that part of my tilting and lack of focus was the fact that because I was making volume goals, when I was playing someone I considered a fish I was getting impatient and rushing the game in order to get to the next one. Anyway I will play another 20 in the $2 level and if I feel like I play equally well I'll move back up to the $5. Thanks again to everyone for the help. P.S. I have to stop watching videos for a couple of days.. I've been watching 2-3 hours of them everyday since my last post. My head is going to explode!
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