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wowbobwow

math vs intuition in heads up

Hey guys!

I just wanted to know to what has helped you guys most in heads up sngs. I know heads up is more about player psychology and most of us just cannot do calculations on the fly since there is so much to think about.
I'm venturing out into absolute micros so i need some help here.
besides pot odds and hand odds is there anything else i should apply at the micros or should i just focus on the thought process for now?

thanks!    Razz
BetMagicMoney

learn how hand ranges work!!!!!!
chesslw

^^^^This +100000000!

Now for absolute micros... I guess the MOST important thing (imo) is to learn to valuebet thinly, and know when to fold vs a passive guy's raise.
wowbobwow

will do that guys...thanks  Very Happy
acceleration

I think math is not that important at all ... I donīt even count pot odds and such stuff at the table lol. That comes with experience, you will know when you can call a bet from what player (eg. he is a station and bets - you can call, because you will probably pay you off when you hit your draw because a) he is loose passive and likes to see showdowns b) when passive player bets he probably has some kind of hand)

Math is only important when you want to do some after session analyses (EV calculations), 3bet shoving math ... IMO

I think just learn how to approach the game in a logical, rational way and learn to think in ranges and what makes sense and what does not.
wowbobwow

acceleration wrote:
I think math is not that important at all ... I donīt even count pot odds and such stuff at the table lol. That comes with experience, you will know when you can call a bet from what player (eg. he is a station and bets - you can call, because you will probably pay you off when you hit your draw because a) he is loose passive and likes to see showdowns b) when passive player bets he probably has some kind of hand)

Math is only important when you want to do some after session analyses (EV calculations), 3bet shoving math ... IMO

I think just learn how to approach the game in a logical, rational way and learn to think in ranges and what makes sense and what does not.


I think I will just focus on hand ranges right now, I believe it is very important. Damn what was I thinking. I know I should have starting with hand ranges instead I started jumping around with complex calculations. Thanks Buddy  Very Happy
acceleration

wowbobwow wrote:
acceleration wrote:
I think math is not that important at all ... I donīt even count pot odds and such stuff at the table lol. That comes with experience, you will know when you can call a bet from what player (eg. he is a station and bets - you can call, because you will probably pay you off when you hit your draw because a) he is loose passive and likes to see showdowns b) when passive player bets he probably has some kind of hand)

Math is only important when you want to do some after session analyses (EV calculations), 3bet shoving math ... IMO

I think just learn how to approach the game in a logical, rational way and learn to think in ranges and what makes sense and what does not.


I think I will just focus on hand ranges right now, I believe it is very important. Damn what was I thinking. I know I should have starting with hand ranges instead I started jumping around with complex calculations. Thanks Buddy  Very Happy


Youīre welcome. Donīt make it more complicated for yourself than it really is. I mean when you watch Brokerstarīs videos for example ... have you ever seen him doing some equations during his HU matches ?  Laughing  No, cause he is only logically assessing what the other player might hold in his hand according to his tendencies.
Brokerstar

There is pretty much zero maths in my game when I play. I focus on defining my opponents style, picking up tells (timing tells, betting patterns etc) and then using a good counter strategy.
U Cook Socks

Brokerstar wrote:
There is pretty much zero maths in my game when I play. I focus on defining my opponents style, picking up tells (timing tells, betting patterns etc) and then using a good counter strategy.


You think there is 0 maths in your game, but in reality there is. I hear you mention Blockers and such all the time, it may not be the main focal point of your strategy, but it is there all the same.


Picking up on villains patterns is the key imo, even retards do things for a reason,even if that reason is retarded. once you can work out what they are doing, it becomes an easy game. Hand ranges are important too, basically you need to use every bit of information you have for every decision you make.
Borg7

Math is EVERYTHING in poker.
Defining opponent's ranges and adjusting yours accordingly is pure math. We don't have to do concious calculations for it to be math.

When we adjust our own ranges on the basis of what we believe our opponents ranges to be, we subconciously (mathematically) evaluate a wide variety of possibilities.
There is no such thing as playing "feel-based". It's only a sub-category of playing math-based.
BetMagicMoney

Borg7 wrote:
Math is EVERYTHING in poker.
Defining opponent's ranges and adjusting yours accordingly is pure math. We don't have to do concious calculations for it to be math.

When we adjust our own ranges on the basis of what we believe our opponents ranges to be, we subconciously (mathematically) evaluate a wide variety of possibilities.
There is no such thing as playing "feel-based". It's only a sub-category of playing math-based.

This
BetMagicMoney

Borg7 wrote:
Math is EVERYTHING in poker.
Defining opponent's ranges and adjusting yours accordingly is pure math. We don't have to do concious calculations for it to be math.

When we adjust our own ranges on the basis of what we believe our opponents ranges to be, we subconciously (mathematically) evaluate a wide variety of possibilities.
There is no such thing as playing "feel-based". It's only a sub-category of playing math-based.

This
Brokerstar

Ok, ok to say there is NO math in my game when I play is obviously untrue but there is not as much math in my play as there is logical observations on actions vs joe average fish.

I think in terms of learning to beat these games from the ground up you need a foundation to build off of.

Step one of the foundation is to learn the rules of poker (ok we likely have that down)

Step Two: Learn to be able to define your opponent. Is he tight, is he loose, is he passive, is he aggressive? So, so, so, so many people seem to really struggle to do this and always say things like I'm struggling to define my opponents well and feel lost when I play. So it is an important habit to get into.

Step 2.5: Is 2.5 as it kind of goes hand in hand with step two, we need to look for patterns in play as at the lower stakes people just have blatantly obvious routines that = strong or weak (Just being simplistic here as a foundation).

Step 3: Learn about your opponents ranges and the best way to play against them which will vary according to player types (example a calling station may call down three streets with bottom pair, a tight passive player generally will not so value betting mid pair too thin would be a mistake in the latter example).


Quote:


Math is EVERYTHING in poker.
Defining opponent's ranges and adjusting yours accordingly is pure math. We don't have to do concious calculations for it to be math.

When we adjust our own ranges on the basis of what we believe our opponents ranges to be, we subconciously (mathematically) evaluate a wide variety of possibilities.
There is no such thing as playing "feel-based". It's only a sub-category of playing math-based.


Not that I ever go out of my way to disagree with you but I don't agree that everything is math. For example when you have a timing tell that a snap action is weak and you have observed evidence in game that he then folds to a bet in that situation you are not playing math, you are playing the player and his tendencies.

My point that I was making is that I don't think knowing or trying to learn insane equations is anywhere near as important as a first step to learning as the OP originally asked "what should I focus on first".
Borg7

Brokerstar wrote:

Not that I ever go out of my way to disagree with you but I don't agree that everything is math. For example when you have a timing tell that a snap action is weak and you have observed evidence in game that he then folds to a bet in that situation you are not playing math, you are playing the player and his tendencies.

My point that I was making is that I don't think knowing or trying to learn insane equations is anywhere near as important as a first step to learning as the OP originally asked "what should I focus on first".


A timing tell is only a factor that plays a role in defining villain's ranges.
When you evaluate and adjust your own ranges according to that, you're subconciously solving a math problem.
All in all, you're still playing math based even when you base your play mostly on a timing tell.
Brokerstar

Borg7 wrote:
Brokerstar wrote:

Not that I ever go out of my way to disagree with you but I don't agree that everything is math. For example when you have a timing tell that a snap action is weak and you have observed evidence in game that he then folds to a bet in that situation you are not playing math, you are playing the player and his tendencies.

My point that I was making is that I don't think knowing or trying to learn insane equations is anywhere near as important as a first step to learning as the OP originally asked "what should I focus on first".


A timing tell is only a factor that plays a role in defining villain's ranges.
When you evaluate and adjust your own ranges according to that, you're subconciously solving a math problem.
All in all, you're still playing math based even when you base your play mostly on a timing tell.


I watched an episode of numbers once and you're right, everything is maths ha ha.

OP My advice is to not stress yourself to learn everything all at once but instead tackle one obstacle at a time. Math situations will come up on your journey of learning for example understanding how your hand is doing against an entire range as well as many other spots but before you get to that a good place to START is understanding who you're actually up against as you asked what should you focus on first.

And Borg you're on my sh!t list, why were you not at my party last night???
Borg7

Brokerstar wrote:

I watched an episode of numbers once and you're right, everything is maths ha ha.


Haha, epic show!

Brokerstar wrote:

And Borg you're on my sh!t list, why were you not at my party last night???


I was there...took a piss in your swimming pool, rode your electric bull and then left.  Wink
The most fulfilling experience of my life thus far.
wowbobwow

I will take bites out of everything that I'm being fed here and see what works best for me. Working on hand ranges now. For the record I went crazy the other week and memorized hand odds for both the turn and the river for up to fifteen outs when I could have just pasted one on the wall. I'll just be realistic this time...

Kudos!!!   Laughing
chesslw

It really depends what one means by "maths" (sorry I won't spell it math).

Tbh I would consider logical thinking maths. And when you are playing intuitively, basically you are adjusting to your perception of your opponent, and playing to maximize your expectation- i.e. solving a maths problem (one of optimization).

It's not exactly "maximize x^3-5x+7 (corresponding to maximizing your EV) given some conditions (corresponding to reads), but it is really the same thing.

Our brains are very good at pattern recognition- which is basically what maths (or poker, or any other strategy game) is fundamentally. And this is the skill you are using. Although you can just play intuitively with good results if you are a good logical thinker, and have plenty of experience- imo it is much better if you can understand the maths behind why certain decisions are correct.

Tbh I just find that this way I can learn much faster, and improve faster as well, since it becomes easier to generalise spots/decisions.
wowbobwow

chesslw wrote:
It really depends what one means by "maths" (sorry I won't spell it math).

Tbh I would consider logical thinking maths. And when you are playing intuitively, basically you are adjusting to your perception of your opponent, and playing to maximize your expectation- i.e. solving a maths problem (one of optimization).

It's not exactly "maximize x^3-5x+7 (corresponding to maximizing your EV) given some conditions (corresponding to reads), but it is really the same thing.

Our brains are very good at pattern recognition- which is basically what maths (or poker, or any other strategy game) is fundamentally. And this is the skill you are using. Although you can just play intuitively with good results if you are a good logical thinker, and have plenty of experience- imo it is much better if you can understand the maths behind why certain decisions are correct.

Tbh I just find that this way I can learn much faster, and improve faster as well, since it becomes easier to generalise spots/decisions.


Thanks I will keep that in mind..  Smile
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