| Archive for Tagpoker Forum A friendly place for winning poker players to share their strategy to making money playing poker. |
| blsmur |
I hate my pokeranother 10 games and 2 winsjust everything went wrong how can someone call a shove with Q6 and make quads 6's another game i have JJ and shove to be called by AA and he gets set and so do i lost so many hands i have devastated my bankroll something terrible lost over half of it in last few days and my ability rating on SS is dropping WTF am i doing ? why is it every time I try to change my game i go broke i was winning at around 55% i dare say it no where near it now not even game to look at the moment is it just variance ? I know I not doing some stuff right but at least 2 games i loses today must be just variance which would have given me 4 out 10 not to bad i guess but its 2 days in a row now and with this idea that I am not playing my hands right I am probably a bit lost so I am making different decisions which might be the factor that is hurting me as well ok i have had my bitch |
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| StasKo |
variance is a bitch. Im on a 200 games stretch of downswing. And it can go worse! So dont go too mad about it as it may take a while before the cards will fall in your favour. Just focus on decision making and brm and youll get through it | ||||||
| blsmur |
yep thanks
i think 30 buyins is a bit too aggressive might go to about 40 from now on |
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| StasKo |
well it depends. If you are a good winner at your stake level and feeling good and comfortable with your game and not afraid of risk taking and moving down in stakes then 30 buyins is ok. I think that even 25 is acceptable. But when it comes to downswings its better to try to tame the beast by tightening up your brm no matter your skill level plus engaging tilt control actions. | ||||||
| Brokerstar |
I think just from the other thread you posted it's fair to say that there are huge holes in the thought process of your game.
For one thing hand reading and value betting were pretty much non existant. Good reasoning for betting and bet sizing are also something that needs to be worked on etc. You've had lots of good replies about what you were doing wrong and how to fix it in the last thread that should keep you busy for a while. In all honesty your 55% 'win rate' at this point in time was likely you just running really good as opposed to an actual win rate as with those kinds of flaws in logic and betting, I'd say it was just about impossible to be a long term winning player. It just takes some people longer than others to understand some of the concepts but when you do, things will begin to get smoother. Broker |
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| Jakester1288 |
Broker's post is very, very true.
It's time to suck it up and admit you suck at poker. Read this: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com...oobah-post-you-suck-poker-671391/ This game is hard, but not unbeatable. It just takes a lot of work. Are you ready to put in that work? |
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| blsmur |
gee thanks Jake , but you think everyone suks at poker
and dom I know i have leaks but later in the evening i went on to lose Aq to 22 i had the AQ 99 to 88 I had the 99 and i bet 3 steets on a total bluff 2/3 pot on flop 50% on turn and shove river Ace he has A rag and call the river shove with 1 pair so it was a bad bluff i was at least repping AK or 2 pair (why was I bluffing at all ) not sure but i guess he was one of those call stns or he could see my cards I think i need some help so anyone that might like to sweat me and work with me let me know thanks I have dropped back to 40 buy ins which put me at $5 games so mixing it with 3.5 usd and 3.5 eur and 7 usd games i checked my win rate it still 55% so that is ok but I would like it to be closer to 60% |
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| blsmur |
why havent i got it right from your course what alternatives do you think might help me ? |
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| Brokerstar |
[quote="blsmur:38860"]
Why haven't you got it right? I have no idea. The course isn't a magic pill that once you buy it you start winning!! You have to actually study it and remember the material. For example you have had many winning players explain to you in some different ways why your over betting logic was so, so wrong in the other thread but by the end of all that help you still didn't really seem to understand why. Your logic was that I now think I have turned the best hand so I'll shove to get him to fold. I can't think of anywhere in the world that you learned that strategy from other than making it up yourself and that my man is the problem. I cant think of any other way to explain value bets vs bluff or why over betting is just so, so wrong (in the spot you chose). Like where in the course was that over bet bluff move type move? No where. So it's nothing to do with the course but more your ability to take in information. I can't actually think of any other ways to put it that makes it any simpler as I have worked my ass off to think of the most simple way to lay out the information. If you can think of anything that has actually helped you remember information in the past then please do share it with me and I'll try and see if there really is any other way to present the information. You know yourself better than I do so think back to something that you have studied and done well at and try to think what made the information stick for you and then I feel that the info and help you're getting here will be more useful to you and you'll start making some money. Good luck. Broker |
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| Brokerstar |
What am I meant to do about that? Suck outs happen, losing flips happens so there is no use crying about them. What you have to do is focus on the leaks that you do have some control over not the hands that play themselves. |
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| blsmur |
i was just pointing out it is not all bad play look its not your fault I have this dumbness i have obviously some brain or would be able to design electronics . So given that , then i must have picked up some bad stuff along the way , when i did the course with you you said then i have flawed logic then , this is nearly a year ago now . ok well i dont seem to be able to recognize that flaw when I am playing , along with some bad Teaching from a guy here in OZ last year It made me very Aggressive and i still revert back to it sometimes and it is a problem for me but "I am working on it . I did all my learning from books for the first 4 years and never discussed a hand with anyone other than my unwilling to listen wife . So perhaps my growing as a player is stunted by this and even now the most i get to talk to people about poker is on here I dont have any regular friends that play and I am out in the country so it not easy to get to the casino and has been nearly year since i last went. this is frustrating for me and i do so want to be good at it ,very good at it .not just 55% thanks for reading ps it is my wedding aniversary today 1 year of marriage and it is our 24th year together So taking wife and Sam out for the day , well may be not as it pisses down rain and thunderstorms . perhaps I will take em out for lunch cheers Ron |
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| chesslw |
Meh... There is "aggressive", and then there is overbet jam when you hit top pair.
Let me try a comparison, if you are dealt AA preflop, would you open shove it? Actually open shoving preflop with AA say 100bb deep is even MUCH better as a strategy than minraising/limping with AA and open shoving any flop (but that's not the point). Do you see why this is? Also do you see the similarities between openshoving any flop with AA to overbet shoving any board when you hit top pair? There is a very important point, that in any symmetrical game (like hu poker), you only gain when your opponent makes mistakes (and obvious you don't make them either). If you overbet it makes your opponent's decision with his hands much easier. Let me illustrate this in a different example. Suppose you are playing cricket, and the opposing team is bowling. Wouldn't you rather be facing no balls all the time? Or if not, what about straight down the line, same length each time? Now whenever you overbet shove some board, it is kind of like bowling a no ball. Effectively "all your opponent needs to do" is to pick some hand he thinks is good enough to call your all in- i.e. you make his life very easy. Personally I just love playing against maniacs and tight passives- mainly because I can be almost certain that I've played the "perfect" mathematical game afterwards. At the end of the day, that's all that matters. If you don't even allow your opponents to make mistakes by making their decisions easier, then how can you have an edge??? I should end that when it's easy for your opponent to make decisions, then you have definitely made a mistake. |
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| two2go |
Disagree. Sure sometimes the best play will put your opponent in a tough spot, but most of the time we can make it easy for him to make the wrong decision by exploiting bad tendencies. I mean most of the time we have something we want villain to do with his range and we play in the way he's most likely to do what we want (we make it as "easy" as possible for him). Maybe your post is about game theory or something and I'm misunderstanding you though. |
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| two2go |
I don't know why but I can't stop smiling at this sentence. Congrats on the anniversary, maybe if you buy her something nice she will listen. |
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| chesslw |
Yeah lol- I'm talking about optimal play- if your opponent is always doing something wrong, like calling preflop shove with atc, then he is just doing that wrong- you can't really say if it's easy or hard for him to do that, or at least saying that doesn't mean anything imo. If you give your opponent a decision (call/fold/raise), and one decision obviously has the highest EV, then of course you make it easy for your opponent to play effectively- which is not what you want to do. In blsmur's case he actually even removed one of his opponent's options(!) from the list since we decided to overbet jam. Any idiot is going to play perfectly against you with their whole range of hands when you do that (unless they are really hopeless). |
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| Jakester1288 |
Because they do! |
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| U Cook Socks |
In my opinion, you just need to start listening, and stop talking nonsense. Sorry to be harsh, but it has become quite boring to be honest. People go out of their way to help you, and you always seem to have an answer for everything.
No one ever said you were dumb by the way, only you said that. I wish you well, and hope you succeed. |
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| blsmur |
Golly
i just try to play this weak limpy style and i end up in shit when i raise 3 x pre and cbet every flop ( well 90% of flops) I do ok when i try to play with a pair or draw with an opponent that just will call to river and then shove I feel i have let him get his 2 pair or whatever by not being aggressive enough when i win the most it is by play strong on flop and strong on turn and sometime i all in bluff river too , but against fish river bluffs rarely work , so I pick my places I have been trying to play this slower type of game and just ck or call with a hand or bet small to keep my opponent in and i lose on river or I am forced to fold because i havent hit I have bet half pot on river and they shove over me. or they just call with 22 now i did win some hands playing like this , but i never seem to know if they have something or not it is just a guessing game for me When i bet preflop and bet flop if I am 3 bet on flop i can get away if not i will bet turn too if i have a good draw or a pair and a draw an depending on my opponent and any reads I may have i bet or ck river . this works for me but as everyone keeps telling me I am not doing right and by the 10 to 15 games of straight losses i can get I think there is something in what is being said , But I am out in the wilderness when i try this type of play . will someone sweat me or let me watch them and explain .discuss with me what they doing so i might get a handle on this I am sure once i catch on then i will have a graph like the ones on the advertising for the courses on this website |
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| U Cook Socks |
I don't know exactly how to put this, so you understand.
I think you need to think more about why you are doing a certain action, rather than the actual action, and definitely more than the outcome. The hand Broker mentioned, where you shoved all in on the turn, with top pair. Do you understand why that is bad? If you go away and read the posts that were made, and understand why it is so bad, then you can go about coming up with a better play. If you do that, then you have learned something, and you will be a better player than before you did it. I'm not trying to be rude to you, but seriously , you write a lot of text, that actually means nothing, I rarely see you ask a question, just a lot of reasons why you did something. |
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| blsmur |
WELL IT APPEARS AM MAKING SOME MISTAKES , BUT I MAKE WAY MORE WHEN I TRY TO PLAY SLOWER ,SO i AM IN A BIT OF A PICKLE I realize that I have a problem in one small part of my game because everyone says 'I have . ok then i am trying to work out how to fix it , in the hand wher ei shoved with top pair and OESD against his range I am favourite I think it was unfortunate that he has A9 and feels he cant fold tptk but what should i have done ck fold ????? when he shove over me or ck call any non all in on the river , I thought most players would be making a mistake to call that shove and so i was hoping for a fold or if called to improve sometime if i was not already in front Now Broker says that is flawed thinking . well fine so what is the the correct think ? ck call or ck fold I guess this has been the same problem for me ever since i did the course I also signed for the William hill course and played some 350 games but end up down $30 from a $35 buy in SO to me i does not matter how i got to this type of play I just want to fix it and ?I dont think reading more and more is doing anything to help and typing in here just pisses everyone off , I think you the points you make a good thanks for your time . regards Ron |
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| kierkegaard1 |
ron the right answer is irrelevent. it's how you arrive at the right answer. this is what will help you in your poker endeavours.
blinds 20/40. even stacks. The only read you have is that he calls a lot of flop bets, but plays very strong hands fast and raises. you minraise to 80 w/89hh he calls flop comes 7J4ddx. (pot = 160) eff. stacks 1420. he checks, you bet 80, he calls. turn Tc (pot 320) eff stacks 1340 he checks. what is the best play on this turn, and on a) a blank river, b) a 8c river, c) 2d river think about what hands you expect opponent to have by this turn (write down all the hands you think he can have) then think about what the best bet sizing is on the turn in this hand |
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| blsmur |
ok at 20/40 i am normally min raising my btn with about 80% of hands so on the flop i have a gut shot and the board has 2 card to a flush so I would bet abput 75 % to 90% depending on player type, as he call so much and I only have a gutter then 50 % is possible for me and quite likely if he calls the cbet then we turn a straight not the nuts but pretty good \ my view of his potential hands are some part of a draw given that he usually bets when he has a hand on the turn I am hoping he has a T and I bet pot and I am shoving the river with pot again now to answer you i f I was not betting pot and shoving river then i might bet small say 120 and hope he shoves and i call but say bet small 120 and he just flats i am sure then he has 2 diamonds or perhaps Q9 one of which is a diamond now I must admit i dont normally give them the chance to catch the river but if i did then the 8 gives me second best straight if he was to chk again i would bet half pot and most likely call any river bet from him if it were a diamond on the river i might bet half pot and fold to an all in if the river were blank ie didnt complete his draws i am betting 1/3 pot hoping he will call or shove over me I hope i havent left anything out i have tried to explain what I am normally doing as well as answer your questions thanks you made me think of stuff a bit differently to what i normally think of . Ron |
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| wolfzep |
im pretty sure you have the nuts on the turn here.... |
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| The Angler |
I'm confused, are you betting pot and shoving river or not?
If you're not betting pot and shoving river why not? |
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| BetMagicMoney |
well i don't think you have the right end of the stick yet, but your not holding the wrong end any more! i'll let kierk point out some of flawed logic as i think he's giving you some 1 to 1
P.S thanks for taking the time kierk <3 |
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| kierkegaard1 |
i forgot to say the amount he's calling oop. for argument sake we'll say around 60-70% and not 3betting.
You shouldn't be 'hoping' for anything. we want to play our hand best based on the most likely range we put our opponent on. I havent got pokerstove handy, but hands that call pre and call the flop i'd guess would be in the region of 22-TT/A4/K4s/Q4s/67/78/79/T7/J8/J9/9T/JT/JQ/A2+(not paired)/56/68/KQ/KJ/KT/QT/Q9 + any 2 diamonds. in terms of card combinations, he has 184 value hands, and 225 combos of no pairs/straight draws (might be a little off - havent done card combo's in ages, but should be good ball park figure for the excercise) these 225 combos dont include flush draws, which there'd be a tonne of. Anyway, the point im making is that he has more no pair hands in his range compared to hands that are paired, and that even his value is very weak here (we know he plays big hands fast) so by intending to pot the turn and shove the river, how many of these hands can call us? well, not many. The notes i provided said he's stationy, so we should be putting out attractive bet sizes to be called down on, not stuff that will scare him away. Calling station doesnt mean "will call anything" or we'd just be shoving AA from the button for 75bbs or w/e. We have no idea about bluff tendencies and we shouldnt assume. we should play straight up until he gives us a reason not to.
well, you should. If you're a favourite going into the river it doesnt matter whether they hit or not. we make correct decisions on each street. If we're 60% favourite on the turn and for argument sake we KNOW his holding, we bet enough to keep him in the pot, as an underdog. if he misses the river, great!, we got extra chips in the pot when otherwise he would have folded. OR, he hits the river, thats poker. but guess what. he will miss more than he hits, so those extra chips he puts in the pot when he was behind is best for us. better than him folding. to put it simply. say we bet 100 on the turn as 60% favourite. he calls. if we replayed it 100 times, we should find it'd be something like 60% we win the hand, 40% we lose. so 60 times we win 6000, and 40 times we lose 4000. so OVERALL we've WON 2000 chips regardless of whether or not he hits the river. THIS is what poker is about. it's not about ALWAYS winning. its about making the best decision that wins the most chips in the long run.
this is kind of the right idea. i think in the scenario i posted it's best to make half pot bets all the way to the river against a weakish range, and just under half pot on the river as we dont want to scare away villain when its hard for him to have much. If we get c/rai on the diamond river we can fold comfortably. If he donkbets a diamond river, it depends on sizing but is kind of irrelevent for this scenario. |
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| BetMagicMoney |
kierk is awesome XD | ||||||
| forced |
keep making these post kierk.... im gonna subsribe and hire you....
no offence blsmur... Im glad your posting your mind here, wrong and/or right...... cause it's bringing out all the 'poker minds' and teaching us all.... Yes I mean ALL! a post like kierk's above is invaluable, enlightening and refreshing for me. It is very awesome to see the information broken down into terms 'simply'.... 'like broker does'... from a champion like 'special K'.... ok... sorry kierk... My own nickname for you. anyways... cheers! love it! |
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| blsmur |
ok i think
the thing that has been high lighted to me is that when i have a big hand i really dont like to fold on the river because a 3rd flush card comes and if I have 2 pair i will normally shove turn so if my opponent is drawing then he should fold I win the pot I dont know about betting half pot on turn and giving him correct odds to call and then folding , I have not been put to this sort of thinking before , well not that I interpreted like that . i suppose somewhere in brokers course its there but I have not seen it certainly never written it down and I am amazed at how simple you made it sound well I will try to implement that into my thinking , changing your thought process is not easy and I thank you for taking the time to explain this to me I guess this means I am not shoving anywhere as much as I used to from now on . regards Ron |
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| blsmur |
yes it certainly is and not the normal type of posts we get on here I hope i have got it right now and can start to implement it |
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| blsmur |
if the turn is an 8 then Q9 wins |
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| blsmur |
i think if you re read the hand Kierk suggest 3 different turn and rivers so it is not just a case of shoving if you read my response it may be a bit confusing but I give how i have been playing and then i give the answers he asked for which is not normally how i play so if you r confused I am sorry but I did my best to answer him as accurately as I could in the future i will not be shoving anywhere near as often with a near the nuts hand I wil be raising and looking for a call and hopefully not a suckout but if it is a suckout then i will evaluate whether I think my opponent is bluffing or not and call or fold accordingly |