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wowbobwow

Heads up starting hands

Hey guys I have been skimming around for the best selection of starting hands, only to find varied selections on different sites. I have a tendency to open with 100% of my hands in position and even OOP I go as low as A3s calling a 3bet. Help please. Does everyone here use Pokerstove to work their starting hands?

Thanks Smile
U Cook Socks

I have heard people say that pre flop isn't all that important, as post flop is where your edge is, which to an extent is true. However a solid Pre flop strategy, can make your life post flop a hell of a lot easier.

The simple answer to your question is, if you can play a hand profitaby, you should open it. As with most things in poker, this isn't a one size fits all problem though. You may well be able to open 100% of hands profitably, I think I am right in saying, if your opponent folds more than 50% of their BB's, then raising is better than folding with any 2 cards. (I don't ever raise 100% the whole game, the odd fold of your junky hands at least lets villain know you aren't blindly opening any two cards)

Opening to wide can be a mistake v other villains, there is no chart I or anyone else can give you, you just have to work it out for yourself. As a starting point, I raise almost any two, as you are looking for reads from the off.

I think you made a mistake in your post, because you can't call a 3 bet oop, I think you meant call an open ?

You can call wider than you think, the same applies, if you can play a hand profitably, then folding is bad. I wouldn't be folding any Ace to a min raise, suited or not. Pretty sure calling a 3x raise with any Ace from the off is profitable too. You then have to adjust based on villains tendandcies. Like if a player doesn't raise for 10 hands in a row, then they throw in a 3x raise, your A4 isn't going to be in all that good a shape (it could still be profitable)

You also have the option of 3betting when you are oop, you also need to use villains button opening freq to decide which hands are good for this option too. I'd recomend reading Mers HUSNG Ebook, from HUSNG.COM which there was a link to on here the other day. Alot of this stuff is explained better than I can.

I don't think Pokerstove is of that much use for pre flop purposes to be honest.
wowbobwow

That more than answers my question. I will work on my ranges and play as best as I can. I would say I am at the conscious incompetence level at the moment when it comes to hand ranges but I'm learning.

Thanks a lot Blazing!  Smile
YATHINNK

Well, Pokerstove can be used to find out what different % of ranges are and then see what sort of hands a 70% range contains.

From who I've spoken to in my early days the general consensus was to raise about 70% of hands. But I think it's also to limp some hands as well. Like your K3o, Q4o, T7o, stuff like that, just to see how he reacts.

But then you have to adjust all of this in relation to how your opponent plays. So having a concrete range you raise/limp at all times is never the best way to play.
U Cook Socks

For what it's worth, K3 and Q4 are awful hands to limp, unless you are limping as an overall stategy, like broker teaches/teached.

The last thing you want to do is limp/fold K3 imo, and you can't limp call.
two2go

When you start to adjust don't forget about how villain plays postflop (esp the flop). Other than adjusting to stack size and how much villain is three betting how he plays postflop is very important. For example, two players flat 100% of your raises in the BB.  One plays very fit or fold postflop (folds to cbets) and the other plays very aggressive and refuses to give you credit. Against one I'm adjusting to 3xing any two preflop and small cbetting every flop, but against the other I want to tighten up a bit both preflop and with the cbetting.
wowbobwow

Thanks heaps guys for all the valuable tips. And Blazing I just got Mercs new ebook. Its a great read and there's lots of good stuff to sink my teeth into.

Cheers Guys!!!
YATHINNK

Blazing_Saddler wrote:
For what it's worth, K3 and Q4 are awful hands to limp, unless you are limping as an overall stategy, like broker teaches/teached.

The last thing you want to do is limp/fold K3 imo, and you can't limp call.


Why is that a bad thing? If you can limp this sorta junk effectively it's easier to play it in a smaller pot. Limping middling hands and stuff like Kx and Qx that can still be good when checked down is useful as it can get information that you can use later.

Obviously if they're attacking limps then you can tighten up and raise to take initiative but I don't mind limping lower K/Q/Jx's and playing them in IP in a smaller pot rather than inflating it.

Could be a flaw in my logic and I welcome any corrections if it is wrong.
doodiewiz

^ Yeah i read Blazings point here and initially agreed. I sometimes limp a load of rubbish like this even if ive been minraising all game. Perhaps a leak.

For example, say effective stack are short like under 20 BBs and villian is shoving over min raises but allowing limps. Isn't this worth a limp in certain situations? Or is this just bad to limp in general as these hands benefit form being minraised for the fold equity and say 10 6 os would be a better hand to limp?
U Cook Socks

doodiewiz wrote:
^ Yeah i read Blazings point here and initially agreed. I sometimes limp a load of rubbish like this even if ive been minraising all game. Perhaps a leak.

For example, say effective stack are short like under 20 BBs and villian is shoving over min raises but allowing limps. Isn't this worth a limp in certain situations? Or is this just bad to limp in general as these hands benefit form being minraised for the fold equity and say 10 6 os would be a better hand to limp?


No, under 25 bb is a completely different situation. Limping K3 could be the best play against some opponents that shallow.
YATHINNK

Blazing_Saddler wrote:
doodiewiz wrote:
^ Yeah i read Blazings point here and initially agreed. I sometimes limp a load of rubbish like this even if ive been minraising all game. Perhaps a leak.

For example, say effective stack are short like under 20 BBs and villian is shoving over min raises but allowing limps. Isn't this worth a limp in certain situations? Or is this just bad to limp in general as these hands benefit form being minraised for the fold equity and say 10 6 os would be a better hand to limp?


No, under 25 bb is a completely different situation. Limping K3 could be the best play against some opponents that shallow.


Then would you not agree it would be easier to get information for t10 rather than t25 at 25bb?
U Cook Socks

YATHINNK wrote:
Blazing_Saddler wrote:
doodiewiz wrote:
^ Yeah i read Blazings point here and initially agreed. I sometimes limp a load of rubbish like this even if ive been minraising all game. Perhaps a leak.

For example, say effective stack are short like under 20 BBs and villian is shoving over min raises but allowing limps. Isn't this worth a limp in certain situations? Or is this just bad to limp in general as these hands benefit form being minraised for the fold equity and say 10 6 os would be a better hand to limp?


No, under 25 bb is a completely different situation. Limping K3 could be the best play against some opponents that shallow.


Then would you not agree it would be easier to get information for t10 rather than t25 at 25bb?


No I wouldn't agree.

I'm not saying you can't limp, if you follow Brokers course to the letter, you will beat the lower stakes games, at the very least, providing you understand the concepts he explains.

However, I still think min rasing is infinitely better. For the following reasons.

- You can win the pot pre flop, you can't achieve this by limping.

- You gain information about their p/f calling ranges, and how they play in raised pots, which is far more valuable information, than play in a limped pot.

- You will make more $ because you are making a bigger pot, and you have your biggest edge in position.

There are probably other reasons I have failed to add also.
YATHINNK

So you don't have a limping range at all in the early stages of the game?
U Cook Socks

YATHINNK wrote:
So you don't have a limping range at all in the early stages of the game?


Not now no, seems a bit pointless. I may use some limp kind strat if I am getting 3bet constantly, but even then I am pretty sure widening your 4bet range is a better adjustment.

I'm not saying you can't limp, I'm just saying , I don't think it's optimal in most cases 75bb deep.
Jakester1288

Blazing_Saddler wrote:
YATHINNK wrote:
Blazing_Saddler wrote:
doodiewiz wrote:
^ Yeah i read Blazings point here and initially agreed. I sometimes limp a load of rubbish like this even if ive been minraising all game. Perhaps a leak.

For example, say effective stack are short like under 20 BBs and villian is shoving over min raises but allowing limps. Isn't this worth a limp in certain situations? Or is this just bad to limp in general as these hands benefit form being minraised for the fold equity and say 10 6 os would be a better hand to limp?


No, under 25 bb is a completely different situation. Limping K3 could be the best play against some opponents that shallow.


Then would you not agree it would be easier to get information for t10 rather than t25 at 25bb?


No I wouldn't agree.

I'm not saying you can't limp, if you follow Brokers course to the letter, you will beat the lower stakes games, at the very least, providing you understand the concepts he explains.

However, I still think min rasing is infinitely better. For the following reasons.

- You can win the pot pre flop, you can't achieve this by limping.

- You gain information about their p/f calling ranges, and how they play in raised pots, which is far more valuable information, than play in a limped pot.

- You will make more $ because you are making a bigger pot, and you have your biggest edge in position.

There are probably other reasons I have failed to add also.


Thiiissss. People who say you can 'get info' from limping, you get the same info but BETTER from raising. If you raise, you can tell if someones tight or loose immediately from their OOP call and 3bet, but if they check back the big blind...wtf does that tell you?

Also limping allows villain to see a flop with ATC and realize equity for free, and play perfectly against you (when if he made the mistake of calling pre with a marginal hand or w/e, you would be printing EV).
Jakester1288

Blazing_Saddler wrote:
Not now no, seems a bit pointless. I may use some limp kind strat if I am getting 3bet constantly, but even then I am pretty sure widening your 4bet range is a better adjustment.

I'm not saying you can't limp, I'm just saying , I don't think it's optimal in most cases 75bb deep.


Just tighten your opening range, widen your calling range to 3bets, widen your 4b bluffing range with some Ax hands (for card removal), and then widen your 4b value range a bit to balance out your 4b bluffing.

Only time to limp is endgame really. To anyone who reads this and limps, tell me ONE good player that limps please.
doodiewiz

Why hate the limp? Also the occasional limp is no bad thing. I've just watched two videos where both instructors limped a few times > 50 deep....

I think your throwing guns out of your arsenal  by never limping against anyone...
U Cook Socks

I don't hate the limp, there is a time and a place for it, but 75bb deep, with K3, versus almost anyone, isn't one of them.
doodiewiz

yes that is true..Smile

-40% fish maybe?
U Cook Socks

doodiewiz wrote:
yes that is true..Smile

-40% fish maybe?


Well yeah, I used to think like that to, but surely you are just missing value by not raising, infact it could be argued you should 3x v a player that bad?
doodiewiz

yeah its all mathematical i guess. Heads up is a weird pyshological game too imo. Although would maths based players disagree? It's like if you try a limp early and you get raised 4x, 5x isn't that some useful info to have early and cheap? Or you're getting 3 bet every time you raise preflop and you try a limp and he lets you limp....keep limping no? I hear what you're saying though...i've read all sorts of conflicting stuff about this exact thing to limp or not too limp...lol
U Cook Socks

doodiewiz wrote:
yeah its all mathematical i guess. Heads up is a weird pyshological game too imo. It's like if you try a limp early and you get raised 4x, 5x isn't that some useful info to have early and cheap? Or you're getting 3 bet every time you raise preflop and you try a limp and he lets you limp....keep limping no? I hear what you're saying though...i've read all sorts of conflicting stuff about this exact thing to limp or not too limp...lol


Well, Jakester said name 1 good player that limps.

I can name one, he doesn't limp as standard, but he does limp sometimes. Spamz (sp?) Read his HH reveiws on 2+2 he says "It's okay to limp to see how they react" I have also heard Primo advocate it, for info for later use too.

I think, like everything in poker, you need to be doing it for a reason.
doodiewiz

^ haha i had spamz in mind too!
kierkegaard1

K3 is a horrible hand to limp. >20bbs i think you'll see primo close to never limp.
Spamz' hh's are now super old, but the reasoning is pretty fair.
notice he's not limping for any other reason than to improve his endgame strategy once it comes to it and im sure, against an opponent he plays regularly, he'd never limp >20bb
doodiewiz

kierkegaard1 wrote:
K3 is a horrible hand to limp. >20bbs i think you'll see primo close to never limp.
Spamz' hh's are now super old, but the reasoning is pretty fair.
notice he's not limping for any other reason than to improve his endgame strategy once it comes to it and im sure, against an opponent he plays regularly, he'd never limp >20bb


yeah i sometimes do limp that kind of stuff more out of habit from my limping days. Fond memories:) What about 10 6 os though? Would you start limping if every raise was getting 3 bet and then raise your value hands for instance or should that be a last resort?
U Cook Socks

kierkegaard1 wrote:
K3 is a horrible hand to limp. >20bbs i think you'll see primo close to never limp.
Spamz' hh's are now super old, but the reasoning is pretty fair.
notice he's not limping for any other reason than to improve his endgame strategy once it comes to it and im sure, against an opponent he plays regularly, he'd never limp >20bb


I have seen Primo limp, in some of his older videos, although for the same reasoning, just for information for later on in the game. I was just using them as an example really, I was actually on the side of not limping. Especially just for the reason of "cheap info"

Those Spamz HH are very old, but I still think a lot of people could learn alot from them, I still read them from time to time, the way he reads board textures, and the way he plans hands out from the beggning is pretty good stuff.
kierkegaard1

no, i'd just fold more and tighten up my opening range.
doodiewiz

i think i play a weird/limpy sub optimal by the sounds of it style against people i think are fishy...interesting discussion Smile ...

what did cog dissonance say or some random quote about him...limpin aint easy Smile
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