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golden

Hands to 3 bet with

What would you elect to 3 bet with as a bluff, not talking about value hands here. Assume we're playing a standard TAG maybe LAG, who's opening 90-100% of buttons.
ex.
suited connectors, suited gappers 67s 78s 108s 97s q9o/s j9s

or hands like q2s j2s a2 k2

I personally like to 3 bet with suited connector and suited gapper type hands as we don't face domination issues, as well we can flop monsters, or flop draws.

thoughts/opinions
ChrisB

Basically always flat with suited connectors because of their flopability and we can c/r on many flops because his c-betting range will consist of many bluffs

I think 3betting hands like 78s really ruins the potential, bloats the pot and really gives you trouble when you in reality only have 8 high.

I really like 3bet-bluffing with hands like A2, K2 because it makes it less likely he has Ax or Kx himself. Particularly AK is reduced from 16 combinations down to 12 and AA from 6 to 3 (same with KK if talking Kx)

I would really consider why we 3bet in the first place and if its for a bluff (hoping to get folds or just take it down with a cbet) then why use cards that actually make really good hands? Sad
U Cook Socks

ChrisB wrote:
Basically always flat with suited connectors because of their flopability and we can c/r on many flops because his c-betting range will consist of many bluffs

I think 3betting hands like 78s really ruins the potential, bloats the pot and really gives you trouble when you in reality only have 8 high.

I really like 3bet-bluffing with hands like A2, K2 because it makes it less likely he has Ax or Kx himself. Particularly AK is reduced from 16 combinations down to 12 and AA from 6 to 3 (same with KK if talking Kx)

I would really consider why we 3bet in the first place and if its for a bluff (hoping to get folds or just take it down with a cbet) then why use cards that actually make really good hands? Sad


Because they don't make good hands that often ? Not disagreeing with you, just putting another side to the argument over.
BetMagicMoney

i like to bet suited connecter type hands as you said!

im assuming were takiong about regs who open 80-90% of the buttons and will fold etc!

With that in mind the reason i wouldn't 3bet A2, Q8 etc is that i feel we remove the value we have in the hamd! if villina opening wide then calling and forcing the to mkae hard decision post flop is better then 3betting Q8 and then been hard pusshed to know were your at or nowing your behind often and havde to flop and hand that has alot of value!

The reason suited connecters are good for 3bets is that the hand is quite strong but not a hand that i won't to play without the initative as often if we hit a pair its not a hand we can bluff catch with as it will be 2 weak!
ChrisB

Blazing_Saddler wrote:
ChrisB wrote:
Basically always flat with suited connectors because of their flopability and we can c/r on many flops because his c-betting range will consist of many bluffs

I think 3betting hands like 78s really ruins the potential, bloats the pot and really gives you trouble when you in reality only have 8 high.

I really like 3bet-bluffing with hands like A2, K2 because it makes it less likely he has Ax or Kx himself. Particularly AK is reduced from 16 combinations down to 12 and AA from 6 to 3 (same with KK if talking Kx)

I would really consider why we 3bet in the first place and if its for a bluff (hoping to get folds or just take it down with a cbet) then why use cards that actually make really good hands? Sad


Because they don't make good hands that often ? Not disagreeing with you, just putting another side to the argument over.


I know that we don't flop monsters THAT often with suited connectors, but the fact that we can flop something so often makes them very good hands to flat and checkraise flops with. Like T8s will have wonderful equity on so many flops with or without the flushdraw that its a good candidate.

Just a few random flops T8hh would be good to cr.

Any HHx combination*
Something like 79, J9, 67, 69, J7 combinations but also 3 card straight draws like 567
any combination of pair+draw, two pair, trips and the like

* When we flop flushdraws with T8hh I would probably default to flatting the flop, because it sucks quite hard if we get raised all-in with so many outs, but ofc villain dependent.
U Cook Socks

ChrisB wrote:
Blazing_Saddler wrote:
ChrisB wrote:
Basically always flat with suited connectors because of their flopability and we can c/r on many flops because his c-betting range will consist of many bluffs

I think 3betting hands like 78s really ruins the potential, bloats the pot and really gives you trouble when you in reality only have 8 high.

I really like 3bet-bluffing with hands like A2, K2 because it makes it less likely he has Ax or Kx himself. Particularly AK is reduced from 16 combinations down to 12 and AA from 6 to 3 (same with KK if talking Kx)

I would really consider why we 3bet in the first place and if its for a bluff (hoping to get folds or just take it down with a cbet) then why use cards that actually make really good hands? Sad


I am going to disagree with you about the bold bit. Player dependant of course, but as a rule I am far more likely to raise a 10 high flush draw than the nut one, because we fold out better hands with 108, where as with the A high fd, we have the best hand often too.
Because they don't make good hands that often ? Not disagreeing with you, just putting another side to the argument over.


I know that we don't flop monsters THAT often with suited connectors, but the fact that we can flop something so often makes them very good hands to flat and checkraise flops with. Like T8s will have wonderful equity on so many flops with or without the flushdraw that its a good candidate.

Just a few random flops T8hh would be good to cr.

Any HHx combination*
Something like 79, J9, 67, 69, J7 combinations but also 3 card straight draws like 567
any combination of pair+draw, two pair, trips and the like

* When we flop flushdraws with T8hh I would probably default to flatting the flop, because it sucks quite hard if we get raised all-in with so many outs, but ofc villain dependent.
ChrisB

I'm not sure about that anymore to be honest. But I still think its a mistake generally to 3bet those pretty hands, if we were to take the discussion back on track
U Cook Socks

My post got completely messed up there for some reason.

The answer is further up  Very Happy

I was saying I would prefer to raise a low card flush draw on the flop as we fold out better hands, where as we are still ahead when we have the nut fd. I don't think you have to 3 bet to wide in reg speed games to be honest anyway, to have a winning game. Seems much more 3 betting dynamic in the turbos when I have played them though.
ChrisB

Yeah I think its okay with your ace high flushdraw compared to ten high.

But 3betting wide doesnt really mean pretty hands like T8s imo
BetMagicMoney

also to the people how 3bet K2, A3 etc - what do you have in your 4bet range (i know where never deep enough but presume this is HU cash and where around 120BB)
ottocat01

Golden - at what stack depths are you talking about?
golden

fairly even, either 1500/1500 1600/1400, 1700/1300, between that range
golden

Well the reason for the 3bet bluff is hopefully to take down the pot right there. As well, setting up an image for when we actually have a hand, and player jams over us light.

If we 3 bet with hands like k2s,k3s A3s, we're most likely facing domination issues. Say we do flop tp, either K or A, would you call a raise or jam to your c bet/ how would you handle later streets if player calls. I know it's hard to imagine this when we don't have an actual player to demonstrate on.
ChrisB

It just seems to me like you contradict yourself.

First you say that you 3bet bluff to take the pot down NOW (in that case cards do not matter)

Then you say that we face domination issues, which isn't really a huge concern as we are going to be c-betting often.

The only reason Kx and Ax are better is because it blocks a lot of massive valuehands villain can have and particularly flopping an ace is usually good against their 3bet call range which shouldn't really contain THAT many aces...AQ/AK are usual candiates for 4betting and they shouldn't really flat with hands like A8 and below, so really you are looking at A9, AT, AJ which are really very few comboes

Again just talking generic aggro player here, but i think thats about right
sausage

Not got time to make a long post on this now but one of the main reasons not to 3b SCs is that we want to keep the pot smaller with those hands and increase our implied odds.

K6s,Q8s etc. are great hands to 3b imo as not only do we have blockers to hands that dominate us, but when we are dominated we often have our opponent hoping to flop well and folding a ton when we cbet.

There are times when we can 4b bluff at HUSNGs with the right stack depths and right dynamic, but typically our 4bets will be for value with monsters. I don't play HU cash 120bb deep & I suspect few on this site so I'm not sure how relevant that discussion is (fwiw I don't think I would be 3 betting too often with a deuce in my hand).
kierkegaard1

Finding a spot to 3bet>finding a hand to 3bet with imo. (when concerned with not 3betting for value)
c/m8

There was a discussion about this a few weeks ago on 2p2. I found this post quite helpful:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com...st.php?p=25133321&postcount=9
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