can people help my end game thought processes please?

razor25 · can people help my end game thought processes please?

Hi guys. Firstly, apologies for the lack of HH. But as well as my specific example, I am after general strategy.

So, it is bb100, reasonably equal stacks, approx 1350 for me and 1650 for him. My read on him so far was that he was a bit hybrid. A tag pre flop (raised a lot of buttons, but did fold a fair few), but once the hand went live to the flop, so to speak, he turned into a complete station.

He 2x'd like he did 80% of the time and I reshoved with KJo. I guess what I am wondering is a few things:

1) Is this optimal given my read? I fail to see how calling with the hope of hitting a flop is optimal, because if we go to a flop, he ain't going anywhere.

2) I am not a maths guy, so please feel free to give me pointers on how to work out whether this is ok. And if it is ok, what other hands can I do it with.

3) I also often do this (against guys who can fold pre flop) with maybe A8o+. Is that ok?

Thanks. Apart from practising obviously, I think I have Broker's course down pretty well. It sets me up well for the majority of the game, but it seems the endgame - particularly oop - is worrying me. I just want to make sure I am not making some massive fundamental errors.

nachtwacht

http://www.cardrunners-ev-calculator.com/

Learn to work with that and all your questions will be answered.

U Cook Socks

KJ is a snap shove with effective stacks of 13-14bb v almost anyone, v some who raises 80% of buttons I'd have the chips in before he could blink.

If you don't know what effective stacks are, that is your first job.

These threads might also be worth a read.

http://tagpoker.myfastforum.org/about316.html

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com...et-shoving-25bb-effective-444194/

*Edit*

Just noticed you mentioned further down doing it with A8+ Versus someone with an 80% Btn raise, up to 25bb deep, any Ace is good enough to reshove with, and many other hands too, read the threads, they will help I think.

razor25

Thank you people. Yeah I guess I was a bit worried that with complete ignorance of any end game maths, I could be making big errors.

I'll take a look at all suggestions and come back with my thoughts. At least 'feel' was correct!

In the meantime, as most of us have had Broker's help and are aware of his philosophies, could I play devil's advocate and suggest that he might advise flatting with the KJ and A8 because it lowers variance?

Obviously I am reshipping verses a loon because the hands are too profitable. I was just wondering though that the variance of what happened (he called and held with A9) is increased by my shove.

I am aware the 2+2 bods would say reship every time. Is there any other play do we think or am I chatting out of my behind?

U Cook Socks

I think you can flat at like 20 -25bb deep if you really feel it is going to be better. At 13bb deep, flatting is pretty awful imo, what you gonna do all the times you completely whiff? Which is going to be more often than you hit. There is no room to make a play or anything on the flop, unless you at least flop some equity.

razor25

Yeah I get ya.

Ok, let me explore further. I'll have a good look at the threads suggested this afternoon (slow day at work!), so apologies if this is addressed in them. But what is optimal play versus different ranges at that sort of stack level?

So is flatting with KJ at 13bb ever good? What if oppo is total nit? Any hands worth doing if he opens 50%? 10%?

U Cook Socks

chesslw

Tbh imo with KJ, AJ, KQ type hands I would rather make a 3bet to 225-275 induce villain to shove dominated hands over your raise. This is of course when you have no need to balance your rejam "bluffs" with 78s, 89s, J5s etc etc.

He shouldn't flat much since stacksizes are terrible for him (normally button can call 3bets wide since he has the implied odds in position, but this isn't true with 13bb), and even when he does, you can cbet/call profitably as a whole, as you are very rarely behind a button flatting range preflop.

Also you can 3bet bigger to set up a stop and go, though this achieves little when you have KJ since you won't be folding out better hands really on the flop...

chesslw

My previous post was in relation to "normal" villains (those who at least open >50% on the button). Of course if villain only opens 10%... then you have to fold imo unless you got reads that he opens weak and limps strong.

Just download pokerstove and play around. Soon you will gather enough intuition during live play to make quick +EV decisions without realising it.

U Cook Socks

chesslw

Yeah I guess it shouldn't matter at all really if button plays optimally. Also in my previous post it should be go and go (not stop and go)- which is unexploitable if you set up stacks properly (effectively the same as a reshove pre mathematically if villain plays perfectly- so it is a freeroll for you for villain to make mistakes).

Also, there is a 3bet sizing with each hand that, if you have a rough guide of villain's flatting range, you can cbet/call profitably otf (or even check/fold if villain's range is particularly narrow)- and this is better than the EV of 3bet shoving pre. tbh 3bet inducing at shallow stacksizes can also just be a freeroll. It is unexploitable with the correct sizing, and only villain can make a mistake pre, so why not give him that opportunity (particularly those who have leaks in endgames)?

Of course this is just a way to exploit a bad villain's endgame leaks- but in general I find 3betting to a normal but pretty much committing sizing is always better than 3bet shoving from playing the 7s, 15s and 30s on Stars (most of my experience was in the 15s). And of course im minreraising with AA vs fishy types.

If I'm playing a fish I'm always making gay 3bets particularly in shallow stacks (3bet with 40% of my stack then shove any flop, say)- just to have the possibility to get some extra edge from his mistakes.

U Cook Socks

I guess when you think about it, it stands to reason. Especially if you have 3bet them a fair bit already, fish in particular, get frustrated, but I find they will be more willing to just think "eff it, I'm shoving all in" rather than calling an all in. Even though realistically, they have absolutely no fold equity.

razor25

hmm, getting a big confused now. I'll have a root around and come back with my findings.

U Cook Socks

razor25

because to be honest, i can almost never see 3 betting at those stack sizes in $3 turbos. So many idiots that are hard to predict. I just think we are making life hard for ourselves...

chesslw

OK I "think" you are not so sure about what unexploitable play is.

Imagine you have 13bb effective stacks. villain minraises and you have KJ. You can jam over his raise, or you can raise to 12bb. Now would you call this a 3bet? What if I were to say there are idiots out there that would flat your 3bet, then fold to your bet on the flop (not many tbh for raising to 12bb)?

In the same sense, it turns out that you can 3bet to 4bb unexploitably and shove any flop, and villain should be folding all his hands that should be folding to a jam pre and calling/shoving those hands that should call a shove pre, so it doesn't really matter from your perspective. However, villain could be making a mistake- and this is how you can an edge in poker- by your opponent making a mistake (be it jamming over your 3bet light, or flatting then folding to the flop jam). So effectively it is a freeroll- so take it.

Also what I was trying to say was you can try to make villain make bigger mistakes by 3betting smaller to 2.5bb etc etc etc, but this is very dependent on villain tendencies, and sometimes isn't optimal.

razor25

ok, i see. how often do you do this in your hu sngs?
thanks

chesslw

Erm... I use 3bets at shallow stacks all the time depending on gameflow/opponent etc.

Also, incidently if I find that he is calling 3bet shoves wid, like with J10o then I would deffo 3bet jam KJ, AQ,AJ etc since I want to maximize the value of my hand.

blsmur

I think you need to get your Nash chart out

and shove with that dont call with it just shove with it

try from about 12 to 15 BB

if you find yourself being outplayed this will even the score

in doms course he also suggests the chubakov chart and there is a link on the site to an excell version

there is also an end game calculator in excell format
so you can find out if your shove on flop is profitable etc

if you have trouble finding it
skype me and ask for them

U Cook Socks

blsmur

The Angler

I was under the impression that open shoving using the NASH chart wasn't unexploitable until 8bb. The thing is Blsmur you have other options, not just shove/fold, the NASH chart only works if you (and your opponent) can either A) Go Ali-in or B) Fold

If you want help with your endgame may I suggest reading this free book by Mercenary, kindly posted here by BMM
http://tagpoker.myfastforum.org/about3869.html

blsmur

I have been and still are reading this "Ebook

it is very interesting and I am sure anyone that reads it and take some notes will learn something from it

I guess the most important thing for me so far is the Question

" which play will make more money in the long run"

the other thing is the small things we do that add up over lots of hands that lose us money

as for end games play

nash and chubakov is a great start for anyone having trouble

i prefer to implement my end game play as a range over 20bb and lower

meaning i am happy to 3bet shove or call fold down to 7 bb

this means i have a soft end game entry

and not a hard 10 bb i shove fold

"Skates"also of husng.com, makes quite a big deal about this , while i don't understand everything he says what I do understand seems to point me this way

I will continue with the "mersenary" ebook is is very good

BetMagicMoney

shove/folding @12-15BB is just losing money unless your against ivey imo

U Cook Socks

BetMagicMoney

blsmur

so you guys are saying you wont shove 66 at 40 bb ?

so where will you shove 66 20 bb

or 5 bb

perhaps 10 bb

if we dont have a 3 bet shove range are just folding 66 when the pot is raised and the effective stack is 40 bb

now if our opponent is tight and raising less than 50% on the button what is our 3 bet all in range going to be

if he raising 65% on the button what is out 3 bet shove range ?

are we just folding because we dont want to be calling a 3x raise for an 8 to1 shot at a set

if our opponent just minraises do we 3 bet our 66 or flat and fold to any aggression

I ask this because I an curious what others are doing that I am doing differently

which way makes the most money ?

kolonel