| Archive for Tagpoker Forum A friendly place for winning poker players to share their strategy to making money playing poker. |
| ChrisB |
Calling 3betsHey guys, just wanted to hear how you attack defending vs 3bets, I've been thinking about it for a while....I read two pieces on the subject recently, one from Risk Oriented, no idea who the fk it is but he has a nice graph 
He basically said to call with hands like KJ, TJ and suited connectors are some of the biggest leaks people have, unless you are incredibly deep. Then I read barewire from HUSNG's thoughts on the matter...he said: A9-AJ, K8s+, K9o+, Q9+, 56s-9Ts, 55-88 was his "approximate" calling range against a 3x 3bet. Now to me that seems INCREDIBLY wide, so what do you do? You could express your answer with 3 different player types, like a super nit, a standard player and a aggro monkey(3betting a ton) Obv we are in position but is it enough to really call that wide? And then there's Risk Oriented who seems to not have a 3bet calling range at all, except for when he chooses to mix it up with big hands.... |
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| NinjaReads |
I suppose KJ, TJ hands are more often than not going to be behind to a 3bet unless he's doing it every other hand. If he's Tag then I doubt he's doing it with Q high or worse than J high then the pot is going to grow quite quickly once the flop comes. I can think of better spots than playing suited connectors in big pots.
Depends on game dynamic really. If he's 3x'ing every button then I'll be popping a few 3 bets in without even looking at my hand. We can't sit and wait for Aces. If he's tight passive and hasn't 3 bet for 50 hands then my KQ doesn't look good anymore. Risk Oriented has a few vids on HUSNG all about using HEM reports and shows all his stats so I'll try and have a look later. |
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| ChrisB |
It doesnt really matter that we are behind equity wise against their ranges if the implied odds are good enough | ||||
| NinjaReads |
True, but it's not deep stacked poker like on the TV. There's a limited time we can call with suited conns and fold to a c-bet when missed. I'd call 3bets wider in the Full Tilt 3000 chip games than normals. It depends on opponent though. If he's 3betting over 50% of hands you're not going to think twice with your KJ. If he's an uber tight folding machine and it's hard even to prise a chip out of his stack then you'll muck KJ to a 3bet in a heartbeat. Saying that, the vast majority of my opponents are droolers who press random buttons and hate folding. You need nothing more than ABC poker. |
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| two2go |
Re: Calling 3betsIt's too hard to give a flatting range even for different player types because so much depends on stacksizes and gameflow. That said, with starting(ish) stacks I like flatting KQ, AQ, AJ (although I will flat others). In general I don't think they four bet for value well, but are still ahead of a lot of your general villain's three bet range. Also with shorter stacks against someone with a weak three betting range (doing it a lot) I like flatting monsters (QQ+). Most of the time their 3betting range can't call a four bet, and when they hit the flop with garbage they're going to be thinking, "a (large) cbet is my only chance to steal this pot". |
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| two2go |
If he's that tight postflop you can make an argument for flatting weaker hands and looking to take it away postflop.
This is an argument for Chris' point about implied odds not against it. |
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| The Angler |
Doesn't a lot of this rely on the size of the 3bet and the size of your bet as well as the player type, frequency and effective stack size. There seems to be a ton of people that min 3bet in which case you're good to call super wide as you're getting 4:1 from a 3x button raise 4.3:1 from a 2.5x raise and 5:1 from a min button raise. (unless my maths is totally wrong)
The range barewire gives looks massive to me as well, does he give any reason(s) for this? |
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| ChrisB |
"Not deepstacked poker like on the TV" made me laugh
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| dzikijohnny |
The first thing that you have to do facing a frequent 3better is to narrow your opening raise range. A lot of hands that risk oriented are talking about [and he is a great guy check out his web site] are ones that you don't want to play a 3bet pot, but are fine to play in position vs a bb raise of your limp. Blind level and stack level are the things that are most important. Hands like kj are going to hit a top pair type flop and if the stacks are smallish then it won't be that big a mistake to ever stack off with it vs an aggro from bb. | ||||
| kierkegaard1 |
i'd argue that against a decent laggy 3bettor that narrowing opening range is counter-productive. if i was 3betting a lot, and my opp stopped opening as much, then that's great for me and doesnt put me in an awkward spot.
against a tricky player i'd establish a 4betting range and it'd probably be pretty polarised to value hands/airballs. i think that'd make his life most difficult preflop i'm far from expert in these spots, though, as its so rare that i play against a decent player that 3bets the s**t out of me. |