4bet sizing

two2go · 4bet sizing

When deep stacked (ie. not trying to leave psb behind, or some other strategy), what's a good standard 4 bet size? I know 3bet is typically a potsized raise or slightly bigger. Is four-bet sizing different? Pot-sized raise+ seems a bit big to me.

Fistor

a "normal" 4bet size is around 2,5 times the 3bet, at least in 100bb cash games. so if you´re still deeper than 100bb, you can make it slightly bigger, but i would never go beyond 3x.

ChrisB

Assuming i open to 3bb and get 3bet to 9bb then my default 4betting would be around 20-25bb depending on stack depth. Often in HU sngs just 4bet jamming is superior.

BetMagicMoney

i think 25BB is best as it would leave you with a psb behind at 10/20 with even stacks.

When playing a deep stack structure, 20-25 is fine as people have said above (i tend to go for the bigger size)

A coule things to note about 4beting in reg speeds or faster structures,

1) 4betting (unless you jam) anything at 15/30+ is usally pretty bad as you just leave stacks really bad! The extion is of course if your trying to set up a 'go and go' but even then Vs most opponents jamming will be better.

2) genrally speaking don't try and do it as a bluff as if somone is 3betting you 30%+ there usally not good enough to fold to 4bets.

3)if you insit that you have to 4bet bluff then please do it with K4, A2, type hands.

kierkegaard1

consider your ranges against thinking players.
against a fish you can play super transparantly depending on their frequencies. if they're likely to 5bet shove weird hands then it doesnt take a genius to work out a nice 4bet sizing with a premium.

against thinking players if you're only 4betting as a jam then you've just polarised your range to value and rarely air and your ranges are pretty easy to exploit. what do you think this would mean for your 3bet flatting range, for example?
smaller 4bets against aggro thinking 3bettors lets you balance a value/bluff range. it can be super polarised to bluff/value (so you're not caught up w/67s or w/e when getting shipped on)
K4 is not a hand to 4bet bluff with but A2 is. you should be able to work out why Smile

BetMagicMoney

yep thats exactually my think Smile

why not included weak Kx hands in your range? surrly Vs a thinking player who has a wide 3bet (alot of good regs will) they can 3bet KQ and KJ, there for Kx has the same kind of card removal that A2 does or is my logic wrong?

kierkegaard1

KT/KJ (and to an extent but perhaps a liiitle more likely to be shipped, KQ) is not likely to be 5bet shipped (its not like we have a super spewy 4bet image)
couple this with the fact that if we have 4bet a couple of times so we're known to be capable and not just flat/fold, KJ/KT is a great hand to flat with oop with.
(KJ is good to 3bet if villain calls a tonne of 3bets obv)
so the amount of Kx that is shoving over a 4bet is so slim that the K card removal is almost redundant.
whereas a lot more Ax is in 3bet/get it in mode

kierkegaard1

to clarify, if we're not flatting many 3bets and tend to 4bet/fold its unlikely villain will have a merged 3bet range. 9Ts becomes infinitely more profitable to flat rather than 3bet for obvious reasons.
villain doesnt have to worry about playing a pot out of position so can raise anything without worry about its playability post-flop. in this dynamic, villain may (or should) have a polarised 3bet range of value hands and total air hands. so AT+/88+ is a fair value range and then a bunch of Q4o/J4o/84o/92o kind of stuff (these hands are good to include in 3bet range if you are considering our (limited) 3bet calling range)
so by 4betting our K4o we have like 1 blocker to the value range which is kind of useless to us.

im not sure if this is all getting a bit complicated and not sure if i want to go into it too much more, but hopefully this helps some people understand 3bet/4bet pots a bit more

BetMagicMoney

no this is good stuff man Smile

ok so the reason A2 is good and k4 not then is because A2 is a blocker to his play back at range (therefore reducing how often he plays back) rather than K4 wich is just a blocker to his 3bet range, which doesn't matter i he's just going to fold that part of his range anyway.

have i got that right?

kierkegaard1

no, he's not going to be jamming his 3bet bluff range and this topic is based solely on the assumption villain only has a 5bet value range.
if we have A2 it's less likely he has AA/AK/AQ/AJ/AT and also A9s or something.
if we have K4 it's less likely he has AK/KK but yet does not make it any less likely for him to have all of those Ax value hands.

BetMagicMoney

yer thats what i was saying dude Smile

Also how do we go about playing if our 4bet gets flatted? i asume we jam flop with our value hands but what about our A2 do we cbet or is this just burning money?

thanks for your help so far <3

kierkegaard1

as long as sizing is optimal pf a decent thinking player should almost never be flatting as it's so awkward for him to play post. it's awkward for us, but more awkward for villain

BetMagicMoney