3 bet pots

chesslw · 3 bet pots

I remember ages ago when I started here Blazing made a post about 3bet pots, and what I took away from that was that we can 3bet dominated aces, kings since these are blockers to villain's calling range (never thought of that before).

Well- I am still not great with these spots so here some of my queries:

1) is there ever a board where we check/fold or at least only check/call vs unknown (should we cbet 100% vs unknown)?

2) vs a calling station what is the optimal line with AK AQ etc? What about those who stab a lot when we check without a fold button as well?

3) is it ever ok to fold decent top pair in a 3bet pot (both in and oop- not on super connected flop)? Obviously if we are calling pre ip, then we must know villain is 3betting wider, otherwise we would be 4bet/folding.

4) 3bet sizing? I know that it should change relative to stackdepth, or e.g. we ccould set up a go & go with some pocket pair or hands that get dominated when our shove is called.

here are my attempts at answering them:

1) generally if the board is J/10/9 type and fairly connected, I would check/fold with no pair no draw readless -since cbetting is high variance on such a board (not eve sure it is +EV). Also I do think cbetting 3bet pots 100% is a leak.

2) vs stations I would 3bet bigger wtih AK/AQ to "punish" them for their bad call preflop, so that in the long run we are gaining more. Normally I would set up stacks for a cbet and a shove on the turn if it is possible, otherwise I would set up stacks for 3 street all in (e.g. early on, deeper). Vs passive stations, we can check flop if we miss, and the board is not super dry. Vs those who stab a lot we can checkraise when we hit and check/call or check/fold depending on flop.

It is important to know that (imo) check/folding after a 3bet isn't all bad- this is what I've gotten better at compared to when I first started imo. Since if we think about our range, if villain is stabbing 100% when we check, then we gain a LOT more when we hit- so on AVERAGE we are still gaining. The well known mantra "you don't win in poker by folding" is imo wrong- since 0EV is better than -EV, and that, to me, counts as winning.

3) I'm really not sure about this- would be great if someone better could enlighten me. If we flat J10 and flop comes J93r then we have to call all 3 streets all in if no over cards come (or even 1 over card) imo. If we are going to fold top pair in 3bet pots, then flatting pre with J10is -EV (of course depends on preflop odds).

4) I'm not exactly sure as to the merits of 3betting to 3.5x, 3x, 2.5x or 2x. Obviously if we 3bet to a different size each time then it's gonna be exploitable. But vs unknown, what would we be 3betting AA/KK, AK/AQ, 1010/99, KQ/KJ/Q10 or a hand like A2o/107s?

All I can say is what to do vs a station (value 3bet big) or a nit (3bet bluff small enough that he folds enough of his range). Also we don't want to 3bet to awkward stacksizes (e.g. 1.5 psb postflop), and we don't want to isolate ourselves vs better hands (e.g. with KQ/KJ we 3bet to 3.5x). I'm generally unsure on the reasons for different sizing, and also wonder when is it more +EV to flat KQ/KJ/Q10 rather than 3bet? I can't quite seem to work this out.

Vs some "regs" (don't laugh at me and/or ppl I call regs at the 15 dollar level), I've found that min3betting or 3betting to an absurd sizing is very +EV which is especially useful at high blinds. Stacks are perfect for 3bet/folding (compared to if we 3bet bigger). Some fold way too much generally, and play way too passive in such pots (especially the first few 3bets). Others tend to call wider (because of odds), but this means that their range is much weaker, and we can profitably barrel them off their 3rd pair or check down and show our A high a majority of the time (vs zero aggression).

Anyway I hope you guys can reply and help me out a bit here. The above are all my thoughts- chip in on anything you disagree with/want to add Confused

savrababa

Regarding AQ AK against stations, could it be better to just flat?

If someone is going to be calling a lot post flop and we hit say 30% of the time then we are creating a big pot against someone who is not going to fold.

We can still blow the pot post-flop if we hit.

We keep hands like dominated Kx or Qx in the pot.

Even super stations tend to fold in 3 bet pots when an Ace comes up on the flop a high % of the time I think.

Just some thoughts I don't know if this approach is the best and it depends on the players general tendencies but it certainly is a less variance play against someone you feel you have a big advantage on post-flop.

Brokerstar

chesslw

^^ what about vs good thinking players?

Is there ever a flop where you don't cbet after you 3bet pre?

tmle09

U Cook Socks

I'm not great with 3bet pots either, it's not such a big deal (for the moment) cos most of my oppenents suck balls in 3bet pots too.

A few things worth adding that may answer some of the questions from this thread, don't take them as gospel, they are just my thoughts.

* V bad players, 3 bet for value only. No need to 3 bet funky hands, you just get called to wide, and own yourself postflop, bleed of half your stack for no good reason. If you are 3 betting for value only, your value range can be wider. I guess I should have been more specific, because if you villain is going to 4 bet you lots (he can still be bad) then there are hands you don't want to 3 bet with, mainly just hands you are willing to go with. I meant more players that flat to wide.

* To answer a question in the thread, I don't think flatting with AK or AQ for that matter is ever a good idea. They are far to strong to flat with. The power of AK is that it is never in bad shape v almost anything, other than AA and KK and we have blockers to both. The other power of it is that you can play it aggressively and you get a lot of fold equity. If someone raises you with 68s, and you 3 bet and he fold, then that isn't all that bad a result. If you flat, you are giving them a free shot at their 40% equity in the hand. Also lots of dominated hands are going to call you and get into trouble, and weaker hands are also going to shove over the top of you. Just 3bet AK always. There is nothing wrong at all (providing stacks aren't to shallow) in just check/folding certain flops if you miss , player dependant.

* 3bet sizing. You need to think what you want to achieve when you 3bet. 3betting smaller with hands like KQ, KJ, JJ+ seems good, as you keep in dominated hands. For example, early on the guy min raises 40, you 3 bet to 120 with KQ, he is going to have a hard time folding QJ, Q10, K10, and so on, which you dominate, he will probably flat some smaller pocket pairs (although some good players will jam with those) and you are going to be able to take the pot with a cbet most the time, and still have some equity if called on the flop. Obviously with KQ it's an easy fold if you get jammed on, and you can snap it off if you have JJ+

chesslw

Personally I find that as the blinds rise, I rarely 3bet to 3x the button raise since stack sizes are a bit awkward with little room to maneuver.

Also I would never flat with pocket pairs to a larger than min 3bet- I would 4bet or fold tbh.

Also I tend to flat aces and kings in position as well to a larger 3bet (e.g. first hand I 3x to 60 and get 3bet to 180 I would flat)- since if we 4bet we are committing our opponent who may fold out large chunks of his range. Idk if this is a leak but I rarely 4bet bluff when my opponent has made the 3bet large.

This isn't too bad imo- since villain is going to get it in with 99+ anyway even if we have AA or KK in our 4bet range (and vs a random who cares about balance anyway).

U Cook Socks